Inliners International Forums General Discussion Truck Talk Keroppi, my 1946 Chevy 3100

Yes, seems like it. I put the new switch on, but now starting to question the starter also.

I think I'm gonna pull it again and just get another rebuilt one from Jim Carter, it's $130 (+$90 core). I'll still have a spare switch and will be sure that the starter should be working, I hope. Before I do that I will just test running another ground to the starter mounting bolt. I tested continuity from the bolt to the negative post and it's conductive, but there is paint and possibly other grease on the starter mounting lugs, will try to wire brush that possibly.

Just want to make sure that if I swap the starter out it would be my luck the problem with exist...

Old switch:



New switch, just shows operation.

Pressed:



Released:



Operation:

My starter has it's own ground strap.

Michael,

Yeah, I have one I drilled out to fit the starter mounting bolt and will try that first, but if that doesn't seem to work I'll probably get a rebuilt starter from Jim Carter.

Grumble, grumble, grumble...

Tried running a ground to the starter, but it still doesn't seem to have enough umph to turn the motor over, even with a battery charger.

Pulled starter and trying to get a rebuilt, but Jim Carter has them backordered. I sent off a message to him and see what he replies. I'm guessing he can rebuild mine.

When I press the switch it will try to turn it over and hum...I don't think the hum is good.

It's not like a faint click where it doesn't have enough battery, seems something is wrong with the starter.

Any comments?

WAIT, hold that train (of thought)

I see there is a small starter drive gear, and I wonder if mine is bad?

Maybe BOTP, stock49 or mick53 may know how to look inside the starter? Maybe after I remove that outer steel band around the heel end, I can get to that or possibly remove a door...

I brought it home and think I should at least try to get to this small drive gear and see if the teeth are worn off. I can get the drive for $25. Don't mean to sound cheap, but I resemble that remark as I'm not working...



EDIT: Nope, learning as I go...pulled it apart and now see that what they call the starter drive is the big gear in the end cover and taking it apart I see that it fits on the splined shaft which goes through the windings. IMO, that's quite a deal for $25 is the teeth were chewed up...but that's not my problem.

Here's a pic of those splines on the starter drive as well as the splined shaft.





Here's my problem, IMO, this is all $#!tted up on the inside, all the wires and springs are covered in rust, this can't stay on my truck looking like this. Will wait for Jim Carter to respond.

The shaft that goes through the field windings on the inside of the case is the armature. It has a set of windings that rotate inside the field windings. On the back end of it is a commutator. That is where the brushes ride and make contact between the windings. It has several copper strips separated by a softer insulation. It must be smooth and round or the brushes will not contact properly. If it has scratches, lines ,or is out of round it can probably be turned down slightly. The insulated slots can be deepened with a scraper or piece of hacksaw blade.

Check the brushes for smoothness and proper length. They wear out. The brushes need to move easily in their holder. The spring tension keeps them in contact yet allows them to move a little. If the commutator is too much out of round it will throw the brushes out too far to work. Clean all of the wire connections.

This is an easy rebuild. Do the best you can but it doesn't have to be perfect. Get all the dirt and grease out. These old things are pretty forgiving, that's why we love them.

There's enough wrong with it that I think it makes sense to just get a rebuilt unit. There's a lot of rust inside, but the armature doesn't want to pull out, and I can feel rust/crud in there as I move it...the spings and wires can probably be sprayed with T-9 or similar, but even so the wires look very old and brittle.

Now, here's the irony...I have a receipt that the seller gave me with the paperwork. The receipt is dated 10-7-16, clearly states 1946 Chevy Pickup...

"Take off starter & install after rebuild. Adjust voltage regulator - adj carb - change ground cable."

There is no way this starter was rebuilt, this thing is so crusty inside, and one of the hex heads on the long screws is kind of rounded, but I got it off with a vice-grip.

Had the wires and armature been clean as they should have been, I'd feel better about it, but this could actually be the original starter to the engine, which is replaced as it's a '54-'62 235 with lubricated head.

Also, receipt says the ground cable was replaced. Yeah, one was that was too small running to the engine block, but the ground from the battery to the firewall was FUBAR. Seems like half arse work to me...

That is strange. Maybe it ha been in a fold since then. I took two pickups from a ranch here along the river. They had sat in some pretty high water.

Unfortunately there are the unscrupulous types out there. May have pulled the starter for rebuild - got busy - and then just bench tested it, cleaned up the visible parts and reinstalled . . . :-(

Fortunately there are lots of sources for a replacement unit at reasonable prices.

I know the previous seller had problems obviously, and it's never started properly since I had it, although after I messed with the cables it did crank over and I thought I had my problem fixed...apparently not...


Jim Carter is getting me one, I like him and he's helped me out recently with a spring for the Huck brakes. He has some of the best prices also, $130 for a rebuilt starter, +$90/core. I have mine all pulled off and taken apart, will just toss it all back together and send it to him. At least I will know that getting one from him should look like new inside. And I did test it off the truck, it works fine when hooked up to a battery charger, but it doesn't seem to work good when it has a load on it (i.e., connected to the flywheel). When it has the umph, it's strong...but it's intermittent. That I don't like...

And yeah, it may be possible to clean this one up BOTP, but everything is old, rusty and brittle, you can hear the crust when you start to pull out the armature...I don't want this back in my truck...but one problem is Jim Carter doesn't have stock, but the rebuilder is sending him 2, and worst case I can send my core back to them first.

I'll need to wait until Tues. as Mon. is a holiday and I don't think Jim got one today or he would have notified me.

I think your making the right choice getting a new one.They will have turned the armature replaced the bushings and so on. Jim sells good parts. Sounds like it has been bandaided to death. Sometimes it time to start with a clean slate. Good luck.

I think so too!

Honestly, one of the good things about this 'ol pickup is there are not a lot of parts, so even if you replace one and it doesn't fix the problems (hey, I've NEVER done that! ) there are not that many. LOL

The biggest killer on these old beasts is getting the parts, that often takes several days to a week when you need them. But back to the point above, not a lot of them to stock as spares either...

When I bought my truck back in 1980 There were no 12 volt foot starters. I got tired of buying 6 volt starters so I took it to a rebuild place and had it rewired for 12 volt. That starter is still in there. I have replaced the contact button a couple of times.

Did you pull the entire engine out to put the 292 in it? Or did you use your engine with a different head? How did you go about that?

My 53 has/had the 235 in it. I'm out of state working now and should be home in a couple of weeks. I will be ready to start then. with my blower oil pump drive and crank fired ignition I have to move it back into the cab about 7" inches or so. Also my radiator and fan are about 8" thick so I will be moving the radiator as far forward as I can I had a mid shift kit put on my TKO 600 5 speed. It's going to get interesting.

If I remember correctly, you had bought some mounts for the engine? I guess you remove the 235 entirely and weld the mounts to the frame, then drop the 292 in? Do you need to use any of your 235 parts? Sounds like you're swapping out the tranny also...man that sounds like a fun project...

I'm trying to understand in case I ever decide to do something like that, I think more power would be fun...I wouldn't even think about doing something like that until I can get my house project going and was able to get a detached shop/garage...the home I'm building isn't required to have a garage, so I'm putting the shop in the basement to build the home. Problem is...that doesn't work out too well for working on cars...I have half a garage where I currently live and plan to keep this house...but even so...working on cars in half a garage is not ideal...it's hard to get floor jacks and tools around...one day I want to work like a real mechanic!

I want to have a lift someday...

I have biscuit mounts that have a "c" channel on them that fit around the frame rails. The one that is further back has a plate on it to move it inline with the other one. I will try to find a picture and email it to you. I will be home in a couple of weeks and can get you pictures then.

I found some pictures. If you can send me your email I'll send them to you. I can't figure out how to post pictures on here. PS my lift is the best thing I have ever bought.

When you do that, do you measure the differences in the engine so you know how to mount it in regard to the tranny?

Seems complicated to do something like that, I have never fabricated anything like that.


I sent my email in a PM, would love to see pics.

I know that a lot of people go the S-10 route, but that seems pretty complicated also...and then there are some that just fab their own mounts and go to town...I guess you're in between, got the mounts and will fit it together yourself.

That's a serious investment in a project like that.

I'm pretty tapped out trying to build a new shop/home, but I could see taking on something like that...probably wouldn't be too profitable, but would probably be a $#!T load of fun!

PS - stock49/BOTP something happened a week or two ago and the site now recognizes me and keeps me logged in. Whatever was changed seems to keep me logged in now. I used to have to always login before I could reply.

Indeed, just arrived...will try to get it on this afternoon or tomorrow.

Damn if this didn't fix my problem. I've read about the high compression engine giving problems with the 6 volt starter, but when it was starting it was strong, IMO.

One thing I was thinking is that maybe I can turn it over by hand if I could get a crank, my '46 has the ability to do that. Would that relieve any pressure in the cylinders?

Ok, this is not turning out the way I wanted, but isn't life like that most always?

Jim Carter did explain it where it finally makes a lot more sense so that I can understand the problem at hand.

As I have discovered (with some of your help! ) is I have a '56-'62 235 with the high compression 848 head. That of course is the good part, as Jim Carter had noted that it is top of the line for '37-'62 engines. However, in '55 Chevy changed to the 12 volt system and the flywheel changed as well. I'm not exactly clear if I can just convert the system to 12 volt and use the flywheel that is in it, but as Jim noted, apparently the previous owner had put the older 139 tooth flywheel in the '56-'62 235 so that the 6 volt system could be used.

Now, what are my options to fix this problem?

1) Change flywheel to a 168 tooth. They do sell a ring gear, but in order to put it on the flywheel you have to drop the trans...then heat and press on...probably not that big of a deal on this truck...

2) Jim Carter seems to imply that having the 12 volt battery on the truck with a 12 volt starter and generator will allow it to use the old flywheel on it. This would be a 12 volt conversion.

I will need to think about that, since I also need to replace the ring/pinion in the rear which requires everything to come off up to the transmission. It just might make sense to replace the flywheel at that point. Maybe it would be possible to use the 12 volt system until I can get to that, because the ring/pinion will be a fairly involved project in itself. The flywheel could be done at that time. If I can have the 12 volt system in place, maybe I can change the starter drive gear and flywheel at the same time when I do the ring/pinion on the rear end.

Any thoughts or anyone know of this situation and will the 12 volt starter band aid me back together?

EDIT: this is a good explanation of the problem, although I am not completely clear what my options are at this point and/or whether I will need to replace my flywheel before anything.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Flywheel

If your engine starts easily without a LOT of prolonged cranking the 6V starter will handle 12V. That pretty much makes the 12V conversion just a change of light bulbs, coil, condenser, and a voltage reducer for the heater. Possibly the horn or a reducer here too. You can change the heater motor if you like. If the old wires are in decent shape they are fins as they are bigger than the 12v system wires. Mt 270 GMC engine is a '57 so it was 12v. So for a while I ran a 12v starter on 6v. It was OK for the first start of the day but once the engine was warm it didn't work. I have run lot of 6v starters on 12v both Ford and GM and never had one fail.

I agree, and Jim Carter also mentioned that it can be done, but has approx. a 15 second window before it will ruin the starter.

But I have a brand new rebuilt 6 volt starter I got from him, and I think he will take it back and I can just get a 12 volt of the same style that will use the foot switch.

I'm gonna call him tomorrow, but I think that is what I will do. Aside from what you mention, there's the generator/alternator and a 12 volt battery. I have a group 65, not sure if it will fit, but I have a shelf on my firewall. I'll need to measure.

Yeah, battery and generator. I like generators in old stuff because if the battery fails you can push start them. 15 seconds is conservative in the sense that you can do several shorter cranks. I don't think changing the flywheel in order to use a 12v starter is worth the effort.

Can't an alternator be push started?

I pulled the rebuilt 6 volt starter back off the truck, it's on it's way back to MO to be replaced with a 12 volt version. I think I'm going to go alternator as it's quite a bit cheaper. They do have 12 volt generators but those are about $400. The 60 amp alternator is only about $100.

I will need a voltage regulator, voltage reducer for fuel gauge, voltage reducer on wire going to ignition points as well as using voltage reducers on any other accessories like radio (NO) or header (NO). I have a heater that came with it, but it's not hooked up and I am not sure there's electricity on it.

I will sheepishly admit that you mentioned converting it to 12 volt shortly after I got it and posted here. I guess I just needed some time to chew on it...

I haven't seen a Jim Carter catalog in several years but was always impressed with the quality. So I guess he makes a 12v starter with the right gear for the 6v flywheel.
A car with an alternator might be able to push start if the battery was not completely dead. My pickup has and alternator. Or trucks have an amp meter, an alternator needs a volt meter.

Yes, he does, I believe but I have sent a message off to make sure as I know he can make one up by putting the starter drive gear from the 6 volt on a 12 volt starter. He knows very well I have the 139 tooth flywheel and was discouraging me from swapping it out as it would require to separate and pull the trans from the bell housing. Anyway, they do have the drive gears and I'm certain he can make what I need.

IMO, he's a standup guy, he's the first owner of a parts company that has ever taken the time to respond to me personally. Plus they work on and sell parts for these old Chevys all the time, know the quirks and can make the oddball parts like a 12 volt starter with a 6 volt drive gear. And if that's not enough their prices are about the best online. Both starter drive gears are 9 teeth, but the 6v/139-tooth is 4 teeth per inch and the 12v/168-tooth is 5 teeth per inch. That's the main difference in why they won't work interchangeably. The gears would mash each other, expecting completely different arcs between the teeth. Involute gears are fascinating...

He says the 235 is plenty of power that one could want in the 'ol '46. Can't wait to get this all together. I still have the ring/pinion to do also, that should give it the last bit of highway boost I need.

He commented to me that the previous owner went to a great deal of trouble to put the old 6v flywheel on the 235, but I don't believe that's the case. The block appears to be a '51 truck block (JBM) and the head is the 848, so my theory is he pieced it all together and used the 216 flywheel.


Jim mentioned there's a problem if the battery is completely dead and you try to jump start it. That will cause bad juju on something, but that is only with a completely dead battery and he noted it is a very rare case that the battery doesn't have anything in it...but as a precaution as test before jumping would be in order. The voltage reducers aren't too bad, nor is the voltage regulator and coil. Probably $200 total for the alternator and all these parts, excluding the battery which I have.

Sounds like a plan. It will be fun to get it going. A good thing will be that you know what you have and have a reliable source for parts.

Yes, and Jim has written a number of tech articles that are on his site...he's just a good guy to me, he sent me one of those Huck springs recently for no charge also...

Actually he's helped me in narrowing down what I actually have.

This is a response from him.

------------------ reply from Jim Carter ---------------
Alan, Engine block#3835911 is on a Pickup from 1954-55 and began in 1953 in the Corvette and passenger car with a Power Glide transmission. (This has modern insert bearing rods as do engines in vehicles today.) The head is from 1955-62. ALL you are using is from a 235 engine, not a 216. These very early 235's used a 6 volt system. Thus, the flywheel has the number of teeth used in a 6 volt. I can only assume the 3836848 head gives the extra compression to make it more difficult for a 6 volt battery and starter. Jim C
------------------ reply from Jim Carter ---------------

BOTP,

So the interesting thing is that Jim filled in the blanks about my block and head (if he is correct), and it makes sense in order to get the old flywheel by using an early 235 which had them. This is the best explanation I've heard from anyone.

When I was doing some research previously I kept running across information that cross referenced with the Corvette engine, and while I suspected it is not related to it, the castings are but are from different engines so the previous owner who swapped this 235 in knew what he was doing. The seller I bought it from bought it from him. The seller I bought it from raved about how much the guy that swapped the engine knew about these engines. That all makes sense now. He was already in his 80s when he sold it to the guy I bought it from, and was getting to the point he didn't want to be working on old trucks anymore.

And lastly, while it seems odd for Chevy to have put this incompatibility into the 6v vs. 12v flywheel, as Jim Carter points out, it ensured Chevy that the 2 systems could never be interchanged which would be a real problem in a car/truck.

If you ever have to change the ring gear on the flywheel just put the flywheel in the freezer and the ring gear in the oven and it will pretty much fall on.

mick53 I had been planning to do that...had read about a guy that did it in his oven and had the flywheel by the back door...my oven is right next to the back door...

Jim Carter sent me a reply and said the rebuilder is turning one of the 6 volt starters into a 12 volt. He also said that in 50 years some restorer will be pulling his hair out trying to figure this out...

I will try to stamp the flipper arm that attaches to the pedal with something like "139t flywheel" or "4t/inch drive", something like that...

I put my ring gear on a 10.4" flywheel because I kept burning up 9.125 clutches. You can probably buy them today but not in 1980.

Just got a call from Jim Carter Truck Parts. My starter came back rebuilt as a 12 volt.

Just to NOTE, for anyone looking at the same issue, between 6 volt and 12 volt, just so you know...

The starter drive gear will not fit on the newer 12 volt armature. The splines are different on the armature shaft, so you can't use a 6 volt armature with a 12 volt drive gear, or a 6 volt drive gear on a 12 volt armature as I would need. Chevy tried to make everything incompatible so people wouldn't switch the parts between voltage and the differences for 139/168 tooth flywheels.

Because of that, they needed to use the 6 volt armature and rewind it for 12 volts so I could have the 9 tooth, 4 TPI drive gear. The newer one for 12 volt is 9 tooth, 5 TPI.

Also coming is:

12 volt alternator w/neg ground
Bracket to mount alternator
12 volt coil
Voltage Reducer for fuel gauge
Voltage Reducer for coil to points

I will need to use a 12 volt battery and replace all the lights for outside as well as dash and dome light.

Am I missing anything guys?

You will need a resistor for the heater fan if you have one.

I'm pretty sure I don't have one as my truck came with a heater that is not installed. Most people say you don't need a heater in these older AK Series, the engine keeps you warm...LOL

Anyway, I'm not sure there's a fan or not, but I will check that out if/when I hook it up.

My parts should arrive tomorrow but it will take me a few days to get to it and it may take some to get the wiring/lights sorted out.

Sure hope this fixes the 'ol gal...I'll know within a week or two...

W/r/t "The block appears to be a '51 truck block (JBM) and the head is the 848"

1951 block has 15 head bolts
848 head has 18 head bolts

That would be a problem - but it seems that he has since moved on to verifying actual casting numbers "Alan, Engine block#3835911 is on a Pickup from 1954-55 and began in 1953 in the Corvette and passenger car with a Power Glide transmission." so it looks like block and head are compatible.

That is how Jim Carter concluded that the block isn't a '51, it's really a '53-'55 as best he can tell. If you look up in this thread you will see that the J looks like it was stamped on after the fact. M alone would be for a '54, at least from memory a week or two ago, so I think it's possible that it was a '54 that had the J stamped on it.

Jim Carter said you could never bolt a 848 head to a pre-'53 block, that was when they used it on the Corvette as well as passenger cars.

I think I mentioned above that it's a '53-'55 block, when I replied to BOTP, but there's a bit of conflicting info in my thread... But it has to be a Blue Flame Six block to go with the 848 head. The thinking is that Chevy didn't go to the 168 tooth flywheel until '56, when they went to 12 volt. However, by using one of the '53-'55 blocks that would have the 139 tooth flywheel for the 6 volt starter and electrical system that was in the truck. According to this link, M by itself could be for a '54 block.

Casting Codes

Here's the block stamp, which I think you would agree is strange.



This is my believe on what I have. Does that make more sense how I described this?

Got my rewired starter today with the other parts. I'm don't fully understand how the alternator is wired just yet. Seems the number 2 connector gets jumped to the bat post on the rear of the alternator, then the number 1 goes to the ignition. And the wire that used to go from the generator field does nothing and the wire where it went into the voltage regulator and out of the voltage regulator get connected.

I also have 2 voltage reducers, I think one goes from starter to ammeter and one from coil to ignition/points.

Does that sound correct?

I sent some Qs to Jim Carter but I'm pretty sure they are gone for the weekend. I'm gonna get it on but not connected to a battery just yet. I'll replace and/or remove all the bulbs when I do so. I can do that in the meantime while I figure out how to wire it...

My rebuilt starter with 12 volt electrical.



12 volt conversion parts, starter, alternator, alternator bracket, coil, voltage reducers.