Inliners International Forums General Discussion Bench racing I'm new here

Like the subject line says, I'm just getting started here. Been a fan of big sixes since the mid seventies watching Cotton Perry run the Pocket Rocket Nova in NHRA Modified Production.

What brought me here , however, is my recent acquisition of a rat rod with a 153 cid Chevy engine for power. The li'l feller just seemed to beg me to take him home and raise him proper. It's a '28 A Model/'24 Dodge coupe and had a powerglide and an old Jeep pickup third member when I got it. I had a good 700R4 and a friend gave me a disassembled 9" Ford rear end with a 300:1 gear that was nasty but mechanically perfect.

A year later, (I was down for a while with a severely damaged rotator cuff injury and surgery to correct it) I have a good running little ride that could use some beefing up in the power plant area. I've fabricated a good header and a 4 bbl intake with a 390 NASCAR Holley carb. It runs smoothly and idles well. Now I've picked up a second cylinder head that I plan to build with lump ports, bigger valves, roller rockers, good springs, screw in studs, and some professional porting. When the summer season is over I'll rebuild the short block with forged pistons, a 181 crankshaft, and longer rods.

What I REALLY NEED is a source for a roller cam!! I'm wanting to build this thing with a hydraulic roller cam. I can't find anyone with a roller core that I can have ground!!

I'm also needing to know how to post pics here.

Thanks!!

A few years ago I was still able to get a roller cam for my 153 from ISKY. Have you tried them?

Yeah! I spoke to Ron and he said all he had left was one with over .600 lift and really a radical grind. Comp will grind me one if I can come up with a billet core.

[/quote]Comp will grind me one if I can come up with a billet core. [/quote]

It'll cost a lot more to get them to finish grind it than you could buy the one from Isky for already finished, then you still have to buy the billet. Too bad Isky can't just regrind it for you.

Am I missing something? Why not just have ISKY regrind the cam they have? With that radical a grind now, there should be plenty of meat to take off to get what you want.

I asked about that. He told me that to get to where we needed to be, it would have to be heat treated again and would likely warp beyond tolerances.

I'm not giving up yet. Bullet is checking.

Nice talking with you the other day. Bet that light car runs good with 153 power.
For pictures, you have to put the pics in a photo hosting site like imageshack, photobucket, shutterfly to name a few.
Then you get the code for your pic and post it here. Copy and drag/ paste.
4 cyl VC I am working on.

Thanks, Tom! The pleasure was all mine. I'm liable to be in the market for one of those valve covers when I get the new head done and I'm down to installation.

The li'l feller runs pretty well around town and on the back roads. It's a little anemic when I'm on the interstate and running in high gear and the TCC is engaged. I know the rear gear is tall, but some added horsepower would fix that and increase fuel mileage as well. It wants to downshift on long grades and hills.

These were rated at 90 to 100 HP when released back in the early sixties. My combo is around 110 to 120 by all indications, (the engine is un-rebuilt but fairly sound). I've done some serious tuning and the carb and ignition were professionally built and tuned.

I'm figuring it at around 170 cid when finished and the engine work and new pieces should render 1.2 to 1.25 hp per cubic inch with the proper camshaft. It could do 1.5 if I used a radical solid roller and higher, (requiring racing fuel) compression pistons and more radical head work. I'm looking for small stock V8/Hi Po V6 performance and I know it's there to be had. 190 to 210 hp should be obtainable and be reliable as well!

Help from folks like you will get me there.

I've been down this road that you're on about a year ago. No one, repeat, NO ONE, makes a hydraulic roller cam for an inline six cylinder motor. If I were in your shoes and wanted to make that kind of HP from a 153, I'd think real seriously about putting a turbo on it instead of tweaking everything to the absolute limits of reliability. With the figures you're talking about, a normally aspirated engine is going to be right on the ragged edge of self destruction, even with all heavy duty components in it.

This is just my opinion, so feel free to take it with however many grains of salt you prefer. Whichever way you go with it, it sounds like a really interesting project.

Oh, yeah, and welcome to the Bulletin Board.

I appreciate your input, but I've already started up the trail. Having been around, and working on, other similar projects I'm not too concerned about reliability in this instance. The parts are available, (except apparently the camshaft) to build a durable, powerful 4 cylinder engine out of one of these. The little engine has few weak spots structurally and there are other weaker examples out there that work and live well in the range I'm aiming for. I've see one of these taken to astronomical limits and live. He made almost two and a half HP per cubic inch, normally aspirated, with a flat tappet cam!! I haven't seen the guy in years, but I've seen him mentioned.

I have nothing against turbos and positive displacement superchargers. It's just not the direction I want to go.

I have a cam grinder that will make me what I want and there are two companies that will make me a round lobe core. Either one of these suppliers just want a LOT of money for a one off!! I'm trying to avoid having to spend that much, but I probably will.

I guess you must have missed the discussion thread here several years back where I made a half a dozen billet round lobe roller cam blanks to get ground as hydraulic rollers. If the demand warrants it again i'll do it over. The 4 cylinders as well.

Yeah! I saw that, as you know. Any time you decide to make another run of those, I'm down for a 4 cylinder unit!!

The introduction of the hydraulic roller cam system has increased the lifespan and power/drivability of several other engine designs. The old LT1 small block Chevrolet and the later Vortec big blocks are two vivid examples. There was an immediate leap in available horsepower and drivability and overall durability increased exponentially at the same time. Electronic fuel management and ignition control would explain some of this, but the mechanical, (actual physical durability) can't be explained away by those other items. The later 3.0 industrial engines and the Mercruiser versions with EFI only make 130 to 140 HP, so the power gains aren't being produced there.

Whether coincidental or causal, there is reason enough to explore the potential of the roller cam system..

Yeah, that's one reason I wanted to explore the hydraulic roller aspect of this for the 6 cylinders was for longevity. As the removal of needed additives in our oils is a sign of further attempts to rid our roads of older vehicles, its either adapt with the times or these older vehicles will be destined to museums instead of being enjoyed on the streets.

I'm glad you commented Scott. After our conversations and MUCH research here and cam specialists, we ended up with a Crower roller core for our 292. The parts are out there.

OP, Try Crower or Schneider Racing for cores. If you don't have any luck there try Andrews or LSM for cores. They are parent companies producing cores. Hopefully, that's not divulging to many secrets.

Yes, Crower and Isky would be my first choices, Crane has also gotten back in the game for being able to make roller cam billets. I spoke to LSM back when I first wanted to offer them, but they wanted $700 per blank for an order of 10 or more, so they quickly got removed from my list, so I made them myself. Comp wanted almost that much just to finish grind a round lobe blank, so they quickly got removed from my list as a source to provide that service.

I had already spoken to Crower, Schneider, Isky, and Crane before I found out for sure that the six cylinder billet was the same as the four for as far as it goes. I had a good conversation with the folks a Schneider, but they didn't have a core and were uncertain of the compatibility with the six cylinder blank.

I'll be retracing my steps in the next couple of weeks. Both Comp and Isky said they could grind one from a round lobe and Comp has the hydraulic profile I'd most like to use.

My brother has an R&D connection with Comp as well. In this case I'd be calling in a favor. It might save me a buck or two if I can get it done.

Between all of us, SURELY we can come up with something!!

The problem with most cam companies is that only a few have the ability to make the billets in-house. Crower, Isky and Crane have this ability, while the other cam companies like Comp, Schneider, Clay Smith, Reed, Lunati, Ultradyne and all the others can only finish grind the cores once they are provided to them by you or from a supplier. So that goes back to having a blank cam core to provide them to be able to grind it. I went from A to Z back when Crane folded up and found a lot of this out, some of it I already knew from my years being affiliated with Crower and Crane and a few others. But what it really showed me was how few cam companies really had this ability to do it, and most of these other cam companies are just grinders/regrinders.

I don't figure the hydraulic roller cam will revive the 230/250/292 as far as a big time splash in the hot rodding scene. It COULD do wonders over in the marine and industrial power plant sector. As you pointed out, with the oncoming scarcity of lubricants suitable for flat tappet valve trains, new technology will be needed even in those segments.

The old Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 small blocks are benefiting hugely with the introduction of aftermarket hydraulic rollers, both as updates for the street aftermarket AND for the marine market as well!!

Years ago, I watched a certain 292 powered '67 Chevy II 2 door post become one of the most dreaded cars at dragstrips all over the country. I watched it outrun V8 cars many classes above it week after week, year after year!! NHRA finally just eliminated the whole Modified Production class because they couldn't keep up with the science that made 'em run!! The man, and his partner both affirmed that the camshaft research is what put that thing over the top!!

That's true! They were first for many years in Modified Production and then later in Comp Eliminator while everyone else that ran Chevy 6 cylinders was trying to keep up. The camshaft and cylinder head was where they were light years ahead of all of their competitors. Another thing that was ironic is that Kay Sissell has always been credited with the "lump" concept, yet he spent his whole life trying to catch up with Headrick's level and never could.

Wouldn't you just love to get a look at one of those old heads??

Sadly, Headrick passed away a few years ago. I would have enjoyed picking HIS brain!!

I've got several! I worked for him for 15 years, everyday was like an education in "state of the art".

Mike Kirby is also a great resource. I had probably an hour or more long phone call with him. When I told him what I wanted to do, he informed me it wasn't really new, just that there weren't many wanting to do it because of the expense.

Hey, Scott!! Did Headrick work on the Ford 300s that Cotton ran after MP was killed?

I recall seeing Cotton at Indy in the late eighties campaigning a dragster with a 6 cylinder Ford. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, so I don't know if it was his car or if he was just a hired driver.

No, Jim always only raced Chevy's, Cotton drove a rear engine dragster for Brian Browell from 1983-1988 in Comp Eliminator after Modified Production was axed by NHRA. It was powered by the 292 engine out of the "Pocket Rocket", and he won many Comp Eliminator national championships and set a lot of records with that dragster. There's also a couple of pics of it in Leo's book. I went to Indy with him and Jim several times myself in that time period. Their fiercest competitor was a Ford Inline, but neither Cotton or Jim ever raced or built one personally.

I'm probably mistaken about the Ford dragster. We all looked rather incredulous when the announcer said Cotton was driving a Ford, but like I said, I didn't get to talk to him that year. We were over in the SS pits with Jimmy Bridges and Alan Oakley. Oakley had just bought the Maranian Brothers' SS/DA Camaro.

I actually pitted for Brian Browell once at Memphis. Tom Polk and I were wandering around in the pits and Brian grabbed both of us and hung aprons on us. He was running a V6 at the time. Small world. Polk bought Brian's backup car that next year.

Speaking again of the "Pocket Rocket". I have a good friend who says he knows where the car is. I'll probably be seeing him tomorrow. I know now that Cotton was recently looking for it, so I'll see if I can nail down it's location.

Were you at Indy the year Cotton won SS in Jim Danuel's Nova and runner upped in Comp?

As I recall, they penciled Cotton after the first qualifying pass in the 'Rocket" and he went back out and ran another couple of tenths under on the next pass.

I went with them to Indy my first time in 1986 after he already was already driving for Browell, so it was after the "Pocket Rocket" days and his other driving gigs. Darren Davis bought the "Pocket Rocket" from Cotton in about 1984-85 and he told me he sold it to Todd Patterson a few years afterward, but after speaking to Todd about a year ago, he said that he actually bought another race car from Darren and not the "Pocket Rocket". I told Cotton this and we were both confused on how this person didn't remember correctly how someone couldn't remember who they sold such a famous and iconic car to. We concluded it was a cover story because it contradicted the reason Darren said they were buying the car to begin with.

I'll see my source tomorrow. He says he's sure that the car he's speaking of is the "Pocket Rocket". If I get the answers I'm seeking, I'll PM you with the details. I know Cotton wants the car. If the story is correct, it shouldn't be "public knowledge" until he can confirm or deny it's the one.

When Cotton sold the car, it was stripped of all its "Pocket Rocket" paint job and painted black and anything that could identify it as such was removed before Darren bought it, so it would be difficult for anyone to say for sure it is. Jim wanted it that way because he didn't want anyone riding on him or Cotton's coat tails and saying this was the ex-Perry & Headrick anything. They did this to all their previous Chevy II race cars as well. Jim was funny that way.

What ever happened to Jim Danuel?

He had some issues during the late 80's and 90's, but I wasn't that close to him to really know how it worked out for him.

You're right, I did miss that. I was off of the Bulletin Boards for the last few years, so there were a lot of things that went by that I didn't see. I've thought for some time that if you could grind the taper off of flat tappet cam lobes and reharden the lobe surface, you could use hydraulic rollers. Or as you did, grind a billet camshaft for use with hydraulic rollers. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who has some interest in that area.

See there, Scott?? Not all of 'em are stuck in the past!!!

I'm tellin' ya'!! Hydraulic roller cams are the way to GO!!





Yeah!! I know....... STILL preaching' to the choir

My head builder called today. The 153 head is done!! New studs, guide plates, Perfect Circle valve seals, stainless valves, new keepers, stainless retainers, new springs set to proper height and tension, lumps installed, and a good street port job. The lumps are the newer Max Flow variety.

Intakes flow 163 at .200, 190 at .300, 220 at .400, and 265 at .500.

Exhausts were 120 at .200 and 210 at .500. He called me on the phone to give me the numbers and I don't remember the exhaust numbers for .300 and .400.

He also gave me numbers for .600, but I was too stoked already and can't remember them!!

He always does some extra stuff like cleaning up the oil return passages and cleaning up all of the excess flashing. He hadn't ever done a set of lumps and he was tickled with the results!! Bridges Machine is the place to go in the Nashville area. I've never been disappointed with Jimmy's work and his help Chris is top shelf too!!

Great results! Must be 1.94 intakes. Did he take much off by surfacing?

Actually, they're 1.84s !! I was amazed!! They took off .035". He did some extra work on the roofs of the ports and around the bolt boss on the center two exhausts. They also cleaned up around the guide bosses and worked the humps to blend them in well.

He did a pair of cast iron RHS Small Block Vortec heads for me a year or so ago and I sat around while he and Chris put them on and took them off of the flow bench repeatedly until he was sure he'd gotten everything he wanted out of them.

One of the things we discovered was that the smaller intake valve was much less shrouded at the sides of the chambers and against the cylinder walls. His usual rate for flow bench work is around $95.00 an hour. In my case, we're old friends and I just caught him with a project that intrigued him. They played with those Vortec small block heads for days when they discovered how well they flowed out of the box.

Tom! Do you have the 4Banger valve cover in production yet? From what I can see, I'm probably gonna' need one. Gonna' need to talk to you about roller rockers too.

Maybe have the 4cyl vc at foundry for first castings mid July.
That little 4 cyl is going to cook!

Like I said in the OP, I was hoping for 200+ HP, but I decided to go for a little more drivability and much more durability. I still plan to eventually go with a hydraulic roller, but in the meantime I found the numbers and parts I wanted to build on.

I noticed you have a Ross piston and we've already talked about the Scat rods. Wouldja' sell 'em in units of four?

AAAAHHH!! I'll give you a call sometime first of the week!!

Picked up a 181 crank yesterday for $115.00 delivered. I haven't decided yet whether to just have it turned and use the .350" stroke or have it offset ground and get .400".

I talked to Tom at 12bolt Monday and he's gonna' work me up some prices on rockers, pistons, and rods so's I know how much to save up. He had some important input on my selection on rocker arms.

If this was a Chevrolet V8 I'd know my selections already. This little 4banger has become a very educational experience so far.

I received the crankshaft for the 4banger today. I'm pleased with the condition. You never know how an evil-bay purchase will work out. I'm planning on replacing the timing gears. I just feel like a new build deserves new ones.

Like I mentioned before, if this was a V8, I'd already know what setup I was going to use. In this instance, I'm wondering what the consensus is on the best gear set to use. I figure Tom will chime in here and maybe some of the rest of you as well.