Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected snowman4839 turbo build

Yes, the crank technically has an interference press fit, but you don't have to have a press to install it. A small 5 lb. hammer and a block of wood or short steel pipe that fits over the snout with do it pretty easily.

Before that steel gear is installed on the crank, be sure to duplicate the "Puller" bolt holes from the stock one into the new one. For some reason they are not drilled and tapped anymore. Without the holes, good luck getting it of of the crank.

MAKE SURE you HEAT the Cam Gear BEFORE YOU install it. Other wise you WILL BE DOING ALL OVER AGAIN

The head is making progress, most of the porting is done. Lumps going in tonight, then final porting. Deck the head, perform valve job, clean and assemble.

If the crank is in the block and you drive the crank gear on you can damage the thrust/main bearing if the back end of the crank isn't supported. It's the same with driving on a balancer.

Yeah, a lot of things are done as an afterthought without realizing the impact of those actions. It should be installed prior to putting the crank in the block while it is standing upright on the ground.

The only time I had been home, I didn't start assembly because I hadn't ordered the timing set. Ordering the timing set soon. Just got the cam.

I got the crank snout drilled and tapped for a SBC bolt so I can use an actual balancer installer.

2 things. How did y'all suggest to get the press fit crank timing gear off?
And what are some suggestions for the final CR for this engine? It's zero-decked, ported, .041" quench, 1.94"/1.6" valves, will have a MSD BTM box, and has an air/air intercooler. Will eventually get meth injection. I can pretty much put it anywhere from about 8.9:1 to 9.5:1 with the head I have. I was thinking about 9.1:1?

I will most likely be assembling the short block over my thanksgiving break assuming I get my parts on time and whatnot.

Unless you have a bearing puller type of tool, you will have to rent one or just have the machine shop remove it for you.

The type of tool with 3 hooks and a bolt to screw to press down on the center? Like a steering wheel puller?

And to install the new one, don't you just throw the new crank timing gear in the oven at like 300F and it should fall right on?

Does your crank gear have holes w/threads in it?

If so, a balancer removal tool will work.

If not, something like this http://www.tooltopia.com/atd-tools-3056....CFcVhfgodyYIARg
to get it to move far enough away from the crank then use a 3 hook deal, caution, do not crank down the bearing removal too much as it will get into contact where the gear is attached.

Another example. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professioal-Bear...ols&vxp=mtr

MBHD

One of the only good things about O'Rielly Auto Parts is their tool rental program. It is a loan deal if you get the tool back in 24 hours. You buy the tool and they give you a full refund when you return it. They have all the tools many of us don't use often enough to buy.

So a little more update before winter break hits and the assembly can begin...

So I tried using a 3 hook style puller because I didn't care much about the original cam gear (from the 69 block, not the replacement 86 block) staying intact. I just needed the thrust plate off of it to put on the new cam with the new gear set.

That didn't go very well...


Also tried pulling the aluminum gear off the 86 block's cam but it wouldn't budge.


It's amazing how worn the 86 cam was. I'm surprised it still ran





So... I just loaded it up and got a shop to put them on while I was finishing up the semester. Should be ready for assembly when I get back.



Last piece would be the head Tom's finishing up. Should have everything to go after that.

Glad it is getting closer to build time.

I thought I had mentioned you needed to heat up the aluminum gear w/a torch, propane type, or Mapp gas, or what ever torch you have to heat something up.

When you heat up just the gear, it will literally fall off the camshaft. No puller required.
Ohh well, you got it done, & hope the shop that installed the gear heated up the gear & did not just press it on w/no heat.

Hurry up Tom!, the guy needs his head so he can feed his turbo urge. PSSSSSHHH!!!


MBHD

I tried using a propane torch and the puller but it didn't want to budge. How long should it have taken for it to fall off? I tried heating the aluminum gear with the torch for like 5-10 minutes.

And I just assumed that they would know the correct procedure. What would happen if they didn't heat the gear before they pressed it on?

If they do not heat The gear you will be REPLACING it and maybe?? along with other parts. Because if the gear walks off the end of the cam (and it surly will in short time) The cam will then start to walk In and Out of the block. Which in turn will mess up the lifters, Dist. gear, and so on as the small pieces make there way to the oil pan.

That is what happens when it is not heated. When the gear is pressed on with out heating it, IT shaves the in side of the gear making a Lose fit. And I have seen this happen to too many people and in some cases less then a weeks time.

also putting the cam in a freezer and Heating the gear. THE gear will all but fall onto the cam. It will press on that easy.

I just called them and asked. They said they didn't heat the gear when they pressed it on. Is there 100% chance that it'll fail? I haven't seen it in person yet, but is there anything visual that I could check? Like burrs on the edge of the gear on the pressed surface?

Well, i'll just say that the environment for failure has been 100% created. Whether you will have an issue is greatly stacked in favor of it at this point. Hope not, but its highly possible.

So does that mean the cam as well as the cam gear are ruined now?

No, just the gear. This is where a bolt in the end of the cam could be helpful.

what would physically happen for it to come loose? Would I be able to feel any type of wobble or something while pulling on the gear by hand? Would I be able to see grooves or shavings on the edge of the gear near the press surface? Why don't some other press fit items have to be heated before pressed in?

Well, since the cam gear establishes the thrust by holding tension against the "wedding band" spacer, if it starts to move off the end of the snout, the cam will begin to have excessive forward and backward movement, which will also create more wear on the cam/distributor gears and erratic timing as well. Eventually the cam gear can begin to cut right thru the timing cover and cause other problems or damage.

You will not Or most likely not feel any movement by hand. But once the cam is put into a load. This is when it can and WILL move. At this point you can do 1 of 2 things Replace the gear Now. Or if your cam is drilled in the end you can add the bolt and washer to it. In all my cam gear installs I do both I heat the gear and install MY bolt & washer. Nothing like what PES used to sell. And you had this big bump in your timing cover. I have seen some were people would weld a freeze plug to their cover. Hummmmm NOT for me That's just UGLY.

PS AND yes if it walks it will also mess up the CAM AND LIFTERS. If it walks far enough. The lifters can mess up the cam lobes.

I would not risk running a pressed on camshaft, you already invested a lot of $$$, would be a shame wiping out a new motor over a $60-70 dollar gear? Have not checked prices lately.

When you press on a soft aluminum gear onto a hard cast iron camshaft, guess which one is going to shave material off of?

Aluminum of course.
It is always a good idea to either heat up a part or shrink a part (use liquid nitrogen) in order to fit parts that have an interference fit.

If your aluminum camshaft gear did not fall off of the camshaft, you simply did not heat it up enough. Mapp gas is a hotter gas than propane gas, that is what I use.

MBHD

Well is that something that I should ask the machine shop to pay for or at least try to fix? I mean if they ruined my gear due to negligence, and I had to pay for it... that seems kinda crappy.

Yes, It is. Using heat to expand the gear so that it easily slides on to the cam is the standard procedure. When you pay any shop to do something it is on them to do it right. At the very least they need to put it in writing that they guarantee that the gear will stay put and that they will fix anything damaged by a failure. You need to let them know that they might want to update their fire insurance.

Well I just got back and checked through the parts to come to a wonderful surprise. A nice gash on the bearing surface behind the timing gear. It does not pass the fingernail test... Now I have to make a trip back there anyway for them to polish that out or whatever they would have to do. And there's no way it was me because all I've done is set it down in the garage and then take it back for them to press that new gear on.



but anyway, here are pics of the gears



and the cam didn't look like you could see any obvious shavings or grooves on the end (though I know it would extremely hard if not impossible to see).



The cam gear felt pretty solid on there. If they try to deny that pressing it on without heating the gear would damage it, would there be any (maybe quick) way to confirm that it has been damaged and will fail?

If your seeing no evidence of shearing on the cam gear, there really isn't anyway to know for sure if it will cause a problem. Also, if this is one of those shops that has been pressing on gears that way for 20 years, its going to be hard to convince them otherwise.

If you bring the gear instructions to the shop that performed the work for you. You can show that they did the install incorrectly.

All of the instructions say you must heat up the gear. No if ands or buts.

Going from memory.

MBHD

If you bring the gear instructions to the shop that performed the work for you. You can show that they did the install incorrectly.

All of the instructions say you must heat up the gear. No if ands or buts.

Going from memory.

MBHD

I would not be very worried about it, gears were pressed on like that for years before everyone started to heat them. I think most people had problems at higher RPM not what we are running.

In the 60's I pressed the gears on never had any come loose, I still don't use a screw or retainer or anything. and I turn 7000 RPM at times.

But I do use heat now just makes sense to me.

The first gear I had walk off on me WAS a Crane RV cam (never seen more then (4-4500) And was not heated by the shop that did it. And It came off in about a week. I had this Strangest Rattle/knock One time you would hear it at the front of the motor maybe Next at the rear, After about todays of this I finely figured it out it was the cam gear.
I called Crane to ask If they would replace it. First they told me it should have been Mech. fastened, Well I told them there was No foot Notes in regards to that. And They said ok send it to US and we'll Replace it. So I sent lifters and cam Back to them. But that OPPs cost me New cam bearings, Dist. I got lucky as to the lower end. But after that I ALWAYS heat and have It
mech. fastened.

This is the only set of instructions that timing set came with. Here's the instructions and it didn't say anything specific about heating it.

Also that deep scratch I found might have actually been there before polishing. I can feel it with my nail but it doesn't have sharp edges like it is fresh (I think). Also, there is a ring all the way around that bearing surface right next to it so whatever made that groove might've created this groove when it exited or embedded itself in the bearing when it was last running. It was just odd that the deepest part isn't a ring and that it juts off to the side. That's the only thing that makes me think that it still might have been them.

I saw an idea online that I'm going to try. Taking an old bearing and cleaning it up, then rubbing it along the surface of the crank to see if it puts scratches in the bearing material. If it does, it has high spots and needs a polish or at least some way to knock it down. If not, then it's fine and will just be a groove to hold oil.

Twisted6: Any chance you noticed some odd signs on the cam or gear beforehand that gave any indication that it would fail?

Those instructions appear to be not for your gear install, those look generic.


MBHD

Well that was the only piece of paper in the box besides my invoice

That is one thing you can NOT see once the motor is together. You don't know it is happening till it is to late. One other thing as the cam walks in and out of the block it can push out the Cam plug at the rear of the block as well. That is something else that mine did. All this was something I learned the hard way when I first started with the L6s.

If your not wanting to redo the gear At the vary least have the cam drilled and have it Mech. fastened.

Will that require any extra mods to anything else (such as a different timing cover)? By adding a mech fastener, do you just mean them drilling and tapping a shallow bolt into the end of the cam with the timing gear on it so that you can loctite a bolt and washer into it for added assurance?

Yes, drill and tap the cam snout for a bolt, you'll need to modify your timing cover to compensate for the thickness of the washer and bolt head.

I read a post here several years ago about drilling and taping a small maybe 1/4" hole into the mating area between the cam and the gear and loktiting a bolt in it. It seems that by using a flat head allen bolt a small dimple in the timing cover would clear it. ?

jesus. why is this such a science project...

Is this a common problem on any engine but this one? I called the shop one more time and he said they just lube the mating surfaces and press they definitely don't heat the gear. But he also said he'd never had a gear walk on him like that.

I don't think I have the time or equipment to make a half decent looking modified timing cover.

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place because this is likely the only decent chunk of free time I'll have at home for about a year.

Well, i'm more comfortable knowing they at least lubed the surfaces, because it being dry is what leads to the shearing effect. But heating the gear is a more fail safe method when you are dealing with interference fitments like this. I wouldn't worry about any more then and put it together and drive it like you stole it.