Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected turbo 292 write up

Test drove the Elco tonight. Whew!! 10PSI instantly. It does not seem like the same motor. The tq really seemed to overwhelm the trans too. Had to retune the injectors for the boost and found them nearly maxed out. But the engine is happy and can't wait till Fri eve. Tires blow off easily! Makes 1st gear feel useless. Tom

Tom

Watch you don't lean out on the top end.... if your at 95% DC or worse - better back off a bit until you can get more fuel in.

EFI-DIY,
Before reading your comment, had allready lowered the wastegate setting to a more moderate boost. Upon looking at the data logs, the boost was approaching 15 PSI!

Got to the track, long story, short one is , no new bests, yet. Something happened to the engine. I believe one or more of the intake dividers may have moved. Going to open up the intake and take a peek. Could not get boost to come up like the night before. Every trip down the track was low 14's but just could not muster up the boost. Even tightening up the WG provided no more boost. Keep you guy's posted.

Here is a funny one for you. When going thru tech, they have you open the hood. They look for a catch can for anti freeze and any other hokey stuff that may cause liquid on the track. The young (25 ish) tech guy ask's what kind of motor is that? He had never seen one.

I was concerned about that. I have a couple ideas to improve divider stability. Send some photos to me when you get it opened up and we'll figure out what to do next.

Mike

If the devider/s moved & caused a restriction,that would not limit your boost,actually it might actully show an increase in boost.

Thats part of the reason why my Syclone makes so much boost, the heads are restrictive.

When switching to better flowing heads,your boost will drop & normally you would make more power w/less boost pressure.

So when you have opened up your head as you did,w/out changing anything else,you might have lost some boost pressure.

Tlowe Quote: "Even tightening up the WG provided no more boost"

When just tightning or adjusting your wastegate spring, that will normally only adjust your base boost pressure.
"CarCraft turbo expert/guru. Get this Elky to run like it should.

My 3600 Truck (no driver) is on the verge of 11's,does not need a diet,just more boost! It's a street car w/A/C fully loaded.

Tlowe,don't you have an electronic boost controller?


MBHD

Hank,
Not quite sure how to take your comments.

Your cyclone is / was a factory designed turbo setup. Everything about the fuel/ spark/ engine was also designed for it to run fast with a turbo and EFI.

I am working with a engine never designed for:
EFI
Turbo
Hot rodding in general
No one's footsteps to follow either.

You also know that I do not use a electronic boost controller, what's up with the bashing? Maybe I am taking your comments way out of context.
My setup has a manually adjusted waste gate. I am confident that the problem will be found and solved, and then other people may be able to learn from what I do.
Got to go back out and get some work done.

I think you are taking my coments out of context.
"Get this Elky to run like it should".
Those are words of encouragment,& I guess pushy.

I do not know your complete set-up,that is why I asked.
I do not recall you ever stating the only way you control boost by just the wastegate spring & adjusting it.. I must have missed that.

I would suggest to purchase an electronic boost controller since I know now you do not have one.

The Syclones are not factory GM designed vehicles,a company named Pas,(not in business any longer) modified/outfitted standard,Sonoma trucks.The turbo is a mitsubishi Jap turbo.Pas ordered them.

My Syclone used to run 14's,if you call that fast.?

The Syclone engine is just an engine as any other engine.
Almost any engine can be made to EFI & turbo.

Mike Kirby has been fuel injecting inline 6 siamesed port heads for years,w/great success w/no intake port deviders.

Only thing different in the Syclone longblock over a 1991 Chevy Astro van is lower compression pistons,that's it.Which BTW,was never designed to turbo either.

Hope you find out your problems w/boost.

Your Elky shuld run a lot better than it does,not sure if you realize that.
Not putting you down,your Elky has or should have a lot more potential.

MBHD

Ok, I'm chilled. I have a feeling one or more of the plates have turned / bent and are covering up/ restricting intake flow. While tuning on Thurs eve, the engine had a few hiccups ( backfires) at part throttle and those in the past have caused blown intake gaskets. Imagine the pressure in the intake.

I drove it yest afternoon to pick up the daughter from work and at low throttles it runs good, it like a cork has been thrown in it for boost. Tom

Another thing about running an electronic boost controller is that it it will cause your turbo to spool up faster,something to consider.


MBHD

from the looks of the past photos they look! as if they're just sitting in the ports not pined in in anyway shap or form.The Old port dividers had a divit in the rear of the head to help hold them from moving.The head bolt also went down through the middle of it. Yours don't look to have anyway of holding it in place.So yeah my guess they moved one way or another Maybe even Fell over in the port.Between heat cycle and pressure anything could have no dout happened.

?????? if the waste gate is closed and not opening until boost level is achieved how does a controller help with spool time???

In my book that is a function of exhaust gas mass, Delta P across the turbine, A/R ratio on the housing...

I can see it helping to cut the boost back during launch to stop blowing the tires off.. but faster spool... explain please.

Well, worked on the Elco this afternoon. Pulled the intake, All dividers are in the exact same place I put them. That makes me feel better. Also my special intake gaskets with very little contact area are still holding up fine.
Checked compression and have 150 on all cylinders. So no problems found!
Put it back together and fired it up, it is running better again!

Seems while looking it all over, the crap rebuilt dist is a two piece design. The long part of the housing is pressed onto the bottom of dist base. There is movement at this location, none in the spinning direction but some in the fore/ aft and to/ from engine. Nothing makes contact inside dist when this happens. I figure the module was getting a BAD ground thru this moving junction. So I tied another ground thru the inside of dist, drilled a hole down and attached ground to lower dist housing. Engine seems to be much happier when driving and can now hit the wanted 10 PSI boost.

It always boils down to the small things, no fire, no BOOST! It did not even miss, just seemed weak.


Hank,
Not understanding the boost controller giving more boost quicker. The WG stays closed until the desired boost is achieved.
Maybe the electronic ones can open faster and therefor allow the gate to stay closed a moment longer. I am happy with my boost control, it seems to work very well.

[/quote]

?????? if the waste gate is closed and not opening until boost level is achieved how does a controller help with spool time???

In my book that is a function of exhaust gas mass, Delta P across the turbine, A/R ratio on the housing...

I can see it helping to cut the boost back during launch to stop blowing the tires off.. but faster spool... explain please. [/quote]

If you could see your wastegate while boosting,you would see the wastegate opening a little before it actually will open up more to the setting/spring pressure it is set to.

So, say you have a 10 psi wastegate spring in your wastegate.
You would think the wastegate will stay closed just up to 10 psi,well ,it does not,it will be creeping open before 10 psi is reached.

With an electronic boost controller,it will hold the wastegate completely close until the desired setting is reached.
Therefore,your turbo will spool faster up to the desired setting,because the wastegate is completly closed(forcing all exhaust gasses through the turbine housing & not bypassing the turbine wheel) & not partially creeping open.

Not sure if I explained that correct?

MBHD

Waste gates are not digital, they begin to crack (leak) considerably before their "official" setting, and holding it completely closed helps spool.
If you really needed to, the fix is either a more expensive gate, or rely on a Hobbs switch for a signal to a solenoid-operated gate, which will not move until the trigger signal is transmitted.

Speaking as a nuclear submarine mechanic, a wastegate is nothing but a relief valve. Relief valves have two factors called blowdown and accumulation. They are not on/off transistor logic circuit type things. I don't know how to describe these without a very long post. Basically, there is a crack point, the set point, and the full open point. Accumulation is the difference in pressure between the crack point and the pressure which the valve maintains stable pressure (the boost setpoint). Adding an electronic boost controller, or a manual one that has a little ball check in it like I'm using, minimizes the accumulation by not sending pressure to the wastegate diaphragm until the setpoint is reached. By not cracking the valve open early, this improves boost response. This is what Hank is referring to. Sorry for the long post and I hope you are still awake.

Thank you for that 56er.

My Syclones stock wastegate used to have too much creep & would open prematurely w/the stock wastegate actuator. I installed a stiffer actuator,that helped out quit a bit.

Next, I will install one of these to control the boost better than the factory ECU.
http://www.theboostdepot.com/index.php?p...emart&Itemid=26
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-Tru-B...sQ5fAccessories

MBHD

Tlowe,

is the Elky ready for another 1/4 mile blast w/the new deviders?
It's running good,you have slicks,lets see what it can do!

I can only run my Syclone & it's not an inline, so it does not count & I am pretty sure people here do not want to hear about a V-6.

MBHD

I am ready to try it again. Just got back from a 2 week vaca. Test and tunes are on Friday eves and my Fri's are all booked up with something else.

Been driving it alot and having a ball. Wife is quicker to put her seatbelt on too. It is a noticible difference in running. The new dividers allowed a much leaner run and the fuel mileage is up. So is the throttle response.

Power has to be higher than it was a few years ago.

So when are all your parts going to come together for the 9 second street 69 camaro?

Not for a long time.
Have a 3 & 4 year old & wife works different shifts than I do.
Thanks for asking.

When is that drag race only 65 going to be put together?
What's that going to run?
Going w/the Deppe aluminum block,12 port aluminum Duggan/Sissell head,4.125" bore,turbo, what?

I did have a little time to install my new Alky control http://alkycontrol.com/
set-up on my Syclone,got to run 11's!
Hopefully w/a good tune it will.

MBHD

Here, you can see how an electronic boost controller works.
There are 4 videos,this is the first
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f5geWatdb4&playnext=1&videos=MT0WwhSVUS8

MBHD

Have not had a chance to work on that drag elco. Been too busy with setting up the 292 and 250 engines to dyno. Along with building heads, making lumps, Inliner conventions (FUN STUFF), building rears and family stuff, work and vacations. My minutes are almost all accounted for.
Got some plans to get started on it again, have collected a few parts.
Hope it will run 15's, that way I won't be disapointed. Not sure on which motor. It will also be street legal (so it can be tested more).

Hmmm 15's in the 1/4,,that's not bad.

All my time is spoken for.
I'm having vaca now so I can work on some of my projects,never enough time.

Can't wait tell the boys can help out.

MBHD

Get all the time with them and help from them you can. They'll be grown and gone before you know it. Beater

Thank you! I have access to alot of these parts, so this may be an option for me.

Would it be possible to get a list of parts needed to duplicate your TBI setup? I want to duplicate it in my 69 Chevy pickup. That setup has to be the cleanest looking one I've seen.

And to clarify, I meant the parts that aren't clearly available on your website. Like the TB part number, etc.

My intake was machined to accept injector bungs, the fuel rail is from Ross fuel ijection ( it is a dash 6), the throttle body is a stock 5.3 Chevy truck V8 part.
My control computer is a Holley Commander 950. The distributor is from a 81 chevy truck with Calif emmisions ( electronic timing control).
This system was pieced together by me.
The turbo manifold is available from DEI, the company that sells heat wrap products. Tom

Just read through this whole thread. Good stuff! What happened with the Elky?

Sitting in my shop. Hardly drove it last year because of a huge storm and resulting damage to my farm. This year ,been busy with family, other peoples engine stuff and a 65 4dr wagon for added fun.

Back to the top!

Hey tome loved reading this build had a few questions about the divided intake ports

How reatricted would the ports be running dividers with lumps i don't have the capibilities nor the knowledge to machine my 292 head like you have

Josh, dividing the ports and installing lumps will definately create a much smaller port cross section. This is a whole other frontier that hasn't been explored fully, but should. Im sure a smaller lump made specific for dividers can help, or just simply no lump at all because dividing the port will increase the port velocity, maybe to the same rate or more than the lump also does, so a lump might not be needed in this mod.

But would thw ahort turn radious that is created by the lump itsself not neccessary or is that were the velocity action happens due to the lump taking up volume and creating a tighter threshhold

Well in theory, the lump does help create and direct the air over the short side radius. But long before the lump was ever developed or conceived, racers were still setting records and winning without it, and they have also set records after the lumps were considered the standard without using them also. Tom also dyno tested that comparison and I think he reposted the results in another post recently regarding another question. But again, the divided port concept is relatively untested on so many levels and could open up a whole new generation of mods that puts the lumps on the shelf like an 8 track tape. There is already plenty of evidence showing and proving it works both with and without lumps.

I would love to see and hear about the results of using them with lumps i know some people around here are very set in the ways of the intake threshhold being to small but exactly how much would ou need if you had bigger valves a decent amount of porting no millin out so pretty much a stock intake port woth a lump and small devider what if the lump was shorter heigth wise i really don't want to pull my head off again to remove the lumps i worked hard to perfect but i it means i have to to run the multiport injection that i want to do i guess i will do it

Well like I said, that is a whole area that remains to be discovered. Tom didn't dyno test a divided port head, only a lump and no lump type head.

If you want some more info you can ask Turbo-6 about when he divided his intake ports. He had dynoed both divided & undivided intake port heads.

IIRC, when running the divided ports, he had to turn up the boost another 10 PSI to make the same HP as an undivided port.

Also, If I have my information correct, Mr Hot Rod set a new record w/an old Sissell Lump port head. 8.9 N/A.

MBHD

Darren Davis went that fast 25 years ago with his N/A 250 in a roadster just like that in Comp Eliminator with a Sissell lump head too and set many NHRA records. He wanted to divide the ports and Kirby told him it would never work and not to do it. So he took his Sissell head and ground all the brass out of it all the way down to the floor of the ports and made dividers that welded on to the intake and went almost 2 tenths faster in the quarter...setting another record!

So does it boil down to divided no lump and undevided lump i'll have to measure my port and see how mant square inches the port opening would be at the smallest spot that seems to be what holds people back it sounds i will be talking to turbo 6 unless he chimes in here and see what hes got to say

I appreciate all the help this is far from over!

Since there is really not much data on this, it really is one of those mods that "your results" may vary from what others have done. You'll just have to find what works best for your build.

In the name of equal fuel distribution i'm sure there is some give and take for us garage builders if beed be i guess i could have my head sent out to be milled... But tht costs money seems every one is happy with opening the toof and sides if you did that with a shorter lump but still a lump in it you would beable o keep the velocity hae a good short turn radius an still achieve a usalbe port window

Hmmm if only i had the knowledge and tools like you have scott/tom