Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected snowman4839 turbo build

Hard to tell from the oil return line pics, but if the line/hose drops down lower than where your fittting is in the oil pan, then that is incorrect.

You cannot have any kinks in the oil return hose.

"if the fuel pump works why mess w/it"

You must think I post things here on the forum for no reason.

Yes you need a boost ref line, when you are in boost & you feel the engine cutting out/running out of fuel, that is when you are going to get detonation & when your pistons will blow.

Also, as I have always stated, you cannot always hear detonation, what kind of exhaust muffler/system are you running when driving?

Just curious as to how do you know you are running rich?

I know you are excited, that's understandable, turbos are great!

With the pump gas we get, all the alcohol in the gas dries out your hoses, let your car sit for a long time & watch the fuel eat up your rubber hoses.
A little Xylene or toluene is not going to harm it, you would not use 100% of the stuff. Sorry I suggested a cheap/better octane booster than the typical auto parts stores sells.

Torco accelerator is the best octane bought booster. A.F.A.I.K.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-Fuel-Additi...=item2c5a5bc2fd

The stock valve cover vents are OK for a stock naturally aspirated engine, but now, you are boosting the engine, the excess crackcase pressure has to go somewhere & where it does so is @ the front timing cover seal & @ the rear crankshaft seal = not good.

If your engine levels off @ 2800 & is comparable to the 4bbl engine, it should not be this way, sounds like you are ruuning out of fuel IMO. Not the jets size, but your fuel bowl emptying.

Your turbo engine should pull hard all the way to 4800 or so rpm w/much more authority than compared to your 4bbl set-up.

I know it's not tunned , but this is how it should feel when its all tuned.

Just be carefull, I do not suggest stuff for you to do or get for no good reason.

Goodluck
Repeat questions, how much boost are you seeing & what exhaust system/muffler are you running so you can listen for detonation?

MBHD

You really are sounding hostile. I'm not trying to piss you off. I'm just trying to have a conversation. I know I don't know everything. That's why I signed up to this forum in the first place. That's why I've put so much time into talking with you guys to understand everything. I'm sorry if I don't ask you every small question and if I sometimes just make decisions on my own. Sometimes they turn out to be the wrong decisions but I AM WILLING TO ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES. If sh*t happens, I don't need other people to make me feel worse about it. I'll already feel bad enough.

Now....

Why would it be "incorrect" to have the fitting be slightly above the lowest point in the line? Wouldn't the oil coming down from the turbo push the rest of the oil up that slight bit into the oil pan?

Since you said that, that does make sense and I understand that I need to modify the fuel pump now.

Well I don't "know" but I get a pretty strong gas smell from the exhaust when the engine is running like it's rich. And the exhaust is slightly smokey which I also am pretty sure means it's rich. Also I think 74s are pretty big jets for a 500cfm carb on a 250 with a stock cam.

Again, I don't need you to be hostile. I've told you I've looked into it but couldn't find it to be price effective. I'll give it another look next time I go to lowes or home depot.

Makes sense, what type of extra vent holes should I drill? And how would I go about drilling them?

I worded that pretty poorly... I get the old 4bbl power up until 2000rpm, then the power greatly increases until 2800rpm, then it holds that higher power level up through until I shift (and I've taken it to 3800rpm)

Snowman,
now looking closer @ your oil return hose, it is incorrect.

The hose is lower than the fitting in the oil pan.

So not only did the kink in the hose cause the oil to spew into the compressor wheel the improper routing of the hose caused the oil spewing into the compressor wheel.

Look @ the lowest part of the red anodized fitting, it is lower than the fitting you put into the oil pan.

Plus the hole you put in the side of the oil pan is too low also IMO.
You should have made the hole closer to the oil pan bolts/pan rail.


MBHD

Snowman,
I am not getting hostile & you are not pissing me off.
I know it's hard to tell how we are coming across from typing on the keyboard, so believe me , I am not mad whats so ever.

As far as the oil return hose, the oil has to return freely w/no resistance going back into the oil pan,, sorry, but that's the way it has to be.

I could really car less if you dont use Xylene or Toluene, I have used it & it does work. No hostility.

To me, this is not hostile" Sorry I suggested a cheap/better octane booster than the typical auto parts stores sells"
if that's what you are referring to? I appologize if you took it that way.

Venting the valve cover, there are different ways.
adding breathers like these:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-4211/
or: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OFY-5408/
Or a -12 or a couple -12 fittings in the valve cover w/a hose/hoses that goes to a catch tank: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-23-031/?rtype=10

Or a vacuum pump system http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-22640

MBHD

Here are a couple examples of return areas/ fittings.



You want the hose to free drain to pan, not have to be pressurized to drive the oil out. The oil coming out of the turbo is frothed up and becomes thick with air bubble. It does not flow well.

Get your boost gauge hooked up. You have to know what boost is there.
You have to get the fuel pump to raise pressure with boost. 1 lean time and your pistons will melt. They will spray molten aluminum out the tail pipe.

This is what is meant by vents.

I had posted links previously how to route your turbo oil drain line before, here is another link.

http://www.google.com/search?q=turbo+ret...w=1755&bih=1013

MBHD

Well I ran the turbo this morning without the compressor housing and the drain line disconnected from the turbo and I just let it drain into a bucket. So I started it up and revved it up top full boost and it leaked like it did before. Then I revved it to full boost again and it stopped leading and did not leak the 2 times I revved it again after it stopped leaking. I bought new an fittings and I'll try to run a better drain line when I get back home on tuesday. Ago I'm pretty confident it was just that drain line. I can't explain why it leaked for the first couple of revs though without any drain restriction...

Snowman,
It had to burn all the oil out of the turbine, no big deal.

Harry

What do you mean? I don't think out ever leaked into the turbine housing. It would only leak into the compressor housing at full boost.

Updates, we are all wanted to know hows it going?

Well, I will speak for myself, @ least I am .

MBHD

Like I said in post 66386, I'm going to redo the drain line and I bought two new fittings so that I can make the drain line work how it should. It should be shipped by next Tuesday or Wednesday and I get back from the trip I'm on on Tuesday late afternoon.

And again, I took off the compressor hosuing so I could find the oil leak at full boost. I saw that it seeped a little bit out at about 7o'clock on the compressor seal at full boost. Then I disconnected the kinked drain line and let it drain into a bucket. Then I revved it to full boost again about 6 times. With the oil draining into the bucket, it still seeped through the compressor side seal the first couple of times and then it stopped and didn't seep through after I revved it to full boost 4 more times. Then I had to leave on the trip right after that test. I really think it was just that kinked line which is why I ordered the new fittings but I can't explain why it still seeped out those first couple of revs without the kinked line connected and then it stopped. Any explanations?

Are you only getting fittings for the drain on the turbo itself?

Are you going to reposition the fitting in the oil pan? It is incorrect.
The return hose being kinked is one spot why it was not return to the oil pan & the other spot I previously posted was the other spot where the fitting is lower than the fitting in the oil pan.
(There are two problem areas of the turbos oil return hose)
Hard to say on the oil leak in the compressor housing leaking only on the first couple of times then stopped leaking,,, engine is out of oil? J.K.

Probably residual oil that needed to be purged out.

MBHD

No. I bought two new an fittings that are 60 degree bends instead of the two 30s that I have now. That way I can keep the line above the bottom of the oil pan where it returns to the oil pan and I can actually use an proper fitting on the turbo oil drain instead of forcing it on and hoseclamping it. I want to see if using these 2 new fittings will work adequately until I get the other engine so I can do a proper return line on that one.

OK, but you need to reposition the fitting on the oil pan, it is pointing in a downward position, it needs to be @ least mounted to the side of the oil pan.

MBHD

I understand that its not optimal to have it where it is but will it not work for now? I mean if I have the 60 degree fitting, it will keep 95% of the oil line above the oil pan. I guess i just dont understand why it'd be a problem as long as it isn't backing up inside of the line.

The way it is installed, it will be backing up the oil & will cause the oil to continiously to injest into the compressor wheel which then will injest into the engine & will effectively lower the octane rating of whatever fuel you intend to use.

So, in short,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it will not work,,, period.

You will continiously need to replenish the oil for your engine because it will be burning it up through the combustion process.

MBHD

Well it seems like it would be the kink pushing oil into the housing and not necessarily the fitting location. Shouldn't I try to take out the kink first and see if that stops the leak before I go ahead and patch up the hole I made and redo another hole?

I agree, try getting the kink out and try it again. It never hurts to try. And you are doing it. Keep it up!

Hmmmm,,

I guess I do not make myself clear enough or you do not want to take my advise?


Yes,, you should take the kink out, that will the first part of the 2 problems you have with your oil return line.

The other problem (which will not allow the oil to drain back into the oil pan) is the fitting (in the oil pan) it is pointing down @ an angle, that part will not allow the oil to drain back into the oil pan.

You will need to patch the hole in the oil pan & make another hole in the oil pan in order to install a fitting that comes out to the side, or better yet the fitting will point up towards the turbo.

Hope this makes some sort of sense?

If you understand, knock 2 times.

Testing, testing, does this pic link work?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...9QEwAQ&dur=6093

MBHD

Snowman,

When you have smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe It's because the oil is getting into the turbine not the compressor, the compressor has a seal the turbine only has what looks like a piston ring and doesn't seal oil only exhaust pressure from getting into the bearing housing. As Tom said the oil after the turbo is full of air and can hardly flow so it needs a constant drop to the oil pan or it will back up and run out the turbine and burn. Also put the drain at a main bearing cap location to help shield the drain from windage.

If you have any more than a trace of oil in the compressor you have a different problem and need to check out the turbo !

Harry

I know why you are in a hurry to drive the car, boost is addictive.

Your drain also has to deal with a little crankcase pressure so as has been said the drain hose cannot be lower then the pan connection or the oil will back up in the hose. Has to all gravity drain. Keep after it, doing great. Some of us just work on this junk all the time and never get them done. I envy your progress.

Haha well thanks harry. That's what 5 hours a day for a week with 2 people most of the time gets you.

Ill post my progress when I get back and get the parts tomorrow or Wednesday.

Also what oil pressure should I have going to the turbo? I have about 38psi at idle and 50psi at higher rpm. Ill get exact numbers when I get home but those are pretty close.

Those oil pressures are normal. Getting the drain fixed will help a lot.
Are you working on the boost gauge and A/F meter? I know you are waiting on the drain parts.

Well I get back home tonight so haven't been doing anything on it for the past couple of days but yes, I'm going to get those hooked up as quickly as I can. I have to wait until I get the pipe made from the muffler shop before I do the wideband on the downpipe. The vacuum/boost gauge I can hook to the accessory port on my carb which takes manifold vacuum right?

Is it absolutely manditory that I get a 3" exhaust system? Because I have a flange drilled for a 2.5". Would it affect performance very much?

Modified the fuel pump. Does this seem about right?

Drilled hole and threaded fitting into it a bit and then jb-welded to seal. Now I run a line from the nipple on my turbo to this fitting right?


Closed other 2 breather holes on the other side with jb-weld

The 2.5" exhaust will probably work fine for the low boost setup. 3" would be better. Run what ya got. Tom

haha well when would a 2.5" straight pipe out the back be a hindrance? I mean I'd have to get pretty damn boosted for a 2.5" straight pipe to be a problem but what do I know lol.

Omfg blarg boost is amazing omfg blahhhhhhhhhhh.

So I got one of the fittings today and I got the oil drain almost worked out. It actually has an AN fitting coming out of the turbo drain but Im still waiting on getting the other so I can making the fitting going into the pan better.

So it worked well enough to take it for a drive except for a very small oil leak on the drain line. So I took it out...

Oh My GOD. I cannot describe how amazing the feeling was. So I took it out with my friend and I got up to full boost about 4 times. Every time, I did a rolling burnout. I did a rolling burnout in second gear on a 3 speed. Oh My GOD. The amount of power was amazing. I did hear some detonation the last time so I took it easy on the ride home and it turns out I was running like 12 degrees of inital timing. Wayyyyyy to much for what I'm doing. So I set it to about 4 degrees. Also I hooked up my boost gauge to see how much I was boosting. Then I took it out again. Almost all of that power was gone just from that timing change. It also turns out I'm boosting wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to much. I was peaking at 15psi at full boost and about -20psi vacuum at idle. I need to see what's up and why that's boosting so much because that's supposed to be the 6psi spring. But it was amazing while it lasted. I've taken it to full throttle with that 15psi and 14 degrees advance nearly 10 times now and I've only heard detonation once and it hasn't blown up. I almost want to get a junk motor and run 15psi and 14 degrees on 93 octane and see how long it'll last. Keep in mind I've been doing these runs with 87 octane and octane booster so probably like an actual octane of 89. I couldn't stop shaking for about 15 minutes after those runs. I'm officially addicted.

Also that new AN fitting also fixed the oil blowing into the compressor. So I got a couple of kinks to work out but I can't stop smiling

It is addicting. Be careful, that little bit of detonation you hear is REAL damaging to pistons and rings.

You have a bunch of tuning to go. Take it easy with the timing. Do you have a dial back timing light?

Tlowe,
now it really sounds like you are in a panic. Need to chill out quickly.
Let the kid have some fun.
Just relax.

MBHD

Not really, just grinning with him. It's all fun. Destroyed a few engines at his age. Learned a bunch. Wish I had people back then that could have steered me straight like he has.

With Snow seeing 15 PSI, That poor old 250 did not know it had that king of power in it.

Snow, You better get the O2 sensor hooked up.

I might add, just do one adjustment at a time. Especially on the carb. Take your time or you will chase your tail, like I did too many times.

and please, grace us with a VIDEO!

Updates.
How was the GS nationals?

MBHD

Well I ended up getting a straightpipe exhaust made all the way out the back on wednesday. It ended up being 2.5" just because that's what happened. It sounds pretty nice but it has that crappy slapping sound after you let off after 4k+. Aw well. I'm going to try to buy some 1.5" pipe (the smallest they have is 2") and get that same shop to bend me a wastegate pipe to connect to the downpipe.

I wanted to take my car to the nationals but I wanted to get the kinks out first like get the wastegate working right, get the wideband hooked up, and fix that oil drip with the new AN fitting. So we had it all on the trailer after the muffler shop but I made the call to leave her sitting pretty in the driveway.

Can't tell you how many people I told about my car though. Got quite a few suprised faces and "that's badass" comments after I told them I had a 3 speed on the column with a turbo 250 that could do rolling burnouts at 40. I even got to talk to a guy from ohio with a 1969 buick gs 400 stage 2 which was one of 2 documented. It was basically an off-the-lot drag car with 11:0 compression and forged pistons from the dealer. The original owner of THAT car called my car awesome :-)). He asked me to post pictures up on v8buick.com so that was pretty cool. But it was a great time and my dad spent 2 days just looking at grand nationals, GSXs, GNXs, T-types, and regals (plus a couple buick-powered odd balls).

I learned that I hooked up the wastegate incorrectly. It was a pretty simple oversight. I just assumed the spring was all that kept the wastegate open or closed. I didn't know that the air under diaphram was supposed to connect to the compressor nipple. That's why I was boosting to 15psi :-). I'll fix that tomorrow.

I got the other AN fitting and I should be able to fix the leak tomorrow.

And now that I have the downpipe, I can drill that hole and weld in the bung for the wideband and get that hooked up.

So things are going good :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

EDIT: And I'll get a video out once the kinks are smoothed out.

I hooked up the AEM UEGO today and confirmed my what I suspected. It's extremely rich all throughout the rpm range. The A/F ratio bounces off of 10.0 (lowest richness that it'll display) and 10.2 even with the idle screws almost all the way in. Full throttle stays at about 10.5-12.5. I think the highest it ever got was 13.5 or so after 10 minutes of driving in all gears and rpm ranges. It did spike to like 17.0 in a floored 3rd gear pull. It never did it again though. I floored it again in 3rd and it stayed at around 13.0.

I've read I need to keep it about 13 during full throttle pull and cruise/idle as close to 14.7 as you can get with the richer side of 14.7 being safer. Does that sound about right?

Running 13.0 @ W.O.T. is too lean.

13.0 A/F ratio is not extremly rich B.T.W., it's extremly lean, especially when boosted & running 15 psi.
12.5 is lean also @ W.O.T. Thats not playing it safe.

I would tune around 11.8 @ W.O.T. @ 15 PSI of boost, (rough estimate)

If you think it is making good power @ 15 psi w/out an intercooler, wait until you install an intercooler & get the tuning correct.

Idealy, 14.7 is good for idle, but sometimes some engines do not like that A/F ratio.

14.7 A/F ratio for cruise is a good area to try & get.

Are you still running 15 psi?

When you say you are concervative w/the timing of 10 degrees initial, how much mechanical advance does the dizzy have?

Just a rough questimate w/your engine & depending on how how boost you are running,, you would want a total of 17-20 degrees total,, again, depending on boost level.

When you install an intercooler, you will be able to run more timing, & w/a methanol injection system, you can run even more timing & that will equal to A LOT more power.

With your exhaust system being really loud,, I highly doubt you can hear the detonation going on. As I always said, you cannot always hear detonation in your engine, that is why knock sensors is key to help save your engine.

When are you going to smoke your dads car?

MBHD