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Nice chart.
MHI Turbine housing areas:
6 cm2 = 0.41 A/R
7 cm2 = 0.49 A/R
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R Stock Syclone 8 CM,works great w/2100 stall
9 cm2 = 0.65 A/R
10 cm2 = 0.73 A/R Also works good w/2100 stall
11 cm2 = 0.81 A/R
12 cm2 = 0.89 A/R Takes a while to spool up needs closer to 2400
14 cm2 = 0.97 A/R Minimum 2600 w/lag, 2800 + Stall is better for fast spool-up
15 cm2 = 1.05 A/R
16 cm2 = 1.13 A/R
17 cm2 = 1.29 A/R
19 cm2 = 1.37 A/R
Wish it was easy to get one for every turbo manufacturer.
I think in the past you had said stock boost for the Cyclone is 12 or 15 psi. Buicks also run boost like that , stock. If Snow tries to do that to his 250, bad things will happen. He may progress to that point, but starting there will inevidibly end in failure. And disappointment.
This is his daily driver, not a weekend toy. He also has a tight, teenage budget.
Tom
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The stock specs on the Syclone turbo is smaller that the turbo size you suggested.
A Td06 Mitsubishi stock type turbo will work fine, dont need to spin it as fast to make 12-14 psi.
That is why I suggested a small turbine housing to get fast boost responce, he is not looking to make a track car w/high boost.
Previous post.
BTW,
Snowman is looking for a daily driver,good mileage,boost quickly,low boost all on his stock longblock.
He has a manual trans.His engine is a 250, not a 292,this makes a difference.He wants it to hit full boost close to 2000 RPM.
His engine is not going to turn high rpm for now & needs a combo to work w/what he has now.
MBHD
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ok well I need a turbo that can produce about 5-6lbs on low boost and 16-20lbs on high boost once I rebuild the bottom end. I want it to come in fully boosted by about 2500rpm.
So looks like I need a...
-~0.73 A/R for my turbine and similar for the compressor
-mid-small trim
-T3/T04E or T3/60 housings
tlowe - I know I need to read up on this stuff but I don't have money rationed for books right now and I really need to get this stuff ordered so that'll it'll be here by christmas.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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This is the specs of a stock Syclone turbo compressor & turbine.
They are on the small side IMO
The engine is a 262 CI gets full boost ,when rolling into the throttle (14 PSI) by 2000 RPM,, 2100 RPM stall converter.
Turbine housing:
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R
Compressor housing is a .60 I believe.
Compressor Wheel
48.3 mm / 68 mm(Inducer / Exducer)
Turbine Wheel
55.3 mm / 65 mm(Inducer / Exducer)
MBHD
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So MBHD, by making the A/Rs small but keeping the trim decently sized, you can get quick boost and good CFM. That's what I've gathered from those specs. So my choices appear to be... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-Super-...=item53e53e0404Super60 compressors which is a nice size (I think). Has lower A/Rs, 0.76 trim on the compressor, and 0.88 trim on the turbine. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-SUPER-...#ht_3410wt_1167Super60 compressors which is a nice size (I think). Has higher A/Rs, 0.76 trim on the compressor, and 0.86 trim on the turbine. So wouldn't getting the high A/R give me room to improve once I switch to the high PSI setup and only give me boost when I really get into it? And would the low A/R hinder me when I switch to the high PSI setup but give me more power at more common RPMs? Which would you guys reccommend because I REALLY need to buy one.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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I think you are being too hasty in your decision.
One turbo is not going to do a low boost setup and later a high boost setup (very well).
Settle down and lets do this logically. I will try and get measurements from the 250 turbo engine Turbo. Maybe on Sunday. Tom
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well I'm working on my endgame plan of high boost so which would work well on high boost? (15-20psi)
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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It it was me, I'd get the intake & carb, exhaust manifold, your ignition upgraded, the upgraded valvesprings installed, and all the linkage built and sorted out, and the drain welded in oil pan etc. You can drive it like this, then save up again and buy the turbo/wastegate/intercooler last. That will also give you some time to spend on http://www.theturboforums.com to soak up some more knowledge. No one on here knows everything, we just have different pieces of the puzzle you have to put together yourself. Except for me, that is. I know everything. 
"The first rule of overkill: You can never have too much overkill."
"Overkill is underrated."
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Yeah! That is one confident guy.
I agree, build it as a N/A motor and grow into it. Tom
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My thoughts are,dont waste your time & money on a normally aspirated set-up. You are not going to get anywhere near the results you want going normally aspirated on your stock longblock,or even a moderatly built longblock. It will not produce the HP & more importantly the torque.You are not changing your pistons,taking your head off,porting, larger valves,etc. Adding a turbo w/low boost is easily doable,look @ Bouchers the 66 Chevy truck on the BB that the guy did @ home. https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=61889&fpart=1Also, you can add these parts to your longblock & work pretty good. Don't give up on your dream, live your dream. I do not like the 2 choices of turbos on your last post. Dont rush on the purchase of the turbocharger. The Ebay low $$$ are not known for being the best & not heard of guys running high boost consistanly & last. MBHD
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I was actually planning on just putting money into the valvetrain for now (rockers, lifters, rods, cam, etc.) but I really didn't want to bring it up with you guys because you would probably get annoyed and again think I'm just being indecisive.
If I did get a turbo cam along with the upgrades to the valvetrain, could I run it N/A until I actually get the turbo stuff? Would it run any better/worse? I know that N/A cams usually have mid-high overlap and high lift but turbo cams have low overlap with high lift. Would the lack of overlap mess things up if I run it N/A?
EDIT: MBHD, I know. As I've been thinking about it more and more, I've been thinking about how I should probably save up and get a Garret or Turbonetics or some good brand turbo rather than a eBay turbo. I'll leave the cheap stuff to the less important things like the BOV or the wastegate.
Last edited by snowman4839; 12/18/10 11:14 PM.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Running a "turbo cam" grind in an engine without a turbo (while you gather the parts to put the turbo on) won't damage anything, but the performance will be down compared to having a cam that is optimized for what you have (i.e. naturally aspirated). Would I build it with the turbo cam and drive it N/A till I got the rest of the parts? If the plan was definite to turbo, then yes.  FWIW, I know quite a few people who have done that with varying makes.
My, what a steep learning curve. Erik II#5155
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If I did get a turbo cam along with the upgrades to the valvetrain, could I run it N/A until I actually get the turbo stuff? Would it run any better/worse?
I would venture to say a turbo grind cam will not run any worse than your stock cam,probably will run better depending on specs of camshaft. The stock cam in your engine has pretty pathetic specs IMO. Just as bad as my Syclone camshaft.
MBHD, I know. As I've been thinking about it more and more, I've been thinking about how I should probably save up and get a Garret or Turbonetics or some good brand turbo rather than a eBay turbo. I'll leave the cheap stuff to the less important things like the BOV or the wastegate.
Price range will be $150 -$250 on average for a stock good working turbo,, sure there is a risk in buying used,but the rebuild kits are cheap incase you get a turbo that needs seals. The rebuild kit for my Mitsubishi was $50.
Shop wisely (if you go this route) on forums & read there feedback ratings for there dealings w/other members on the boards.The GN turbos are just oil cooled while the Syclone & Tyhoon turbos are oil & water cooled.
The GN turbos have a 3 bolt round inlet to the turbine,not as good as a T3 mounted turbo like the Sy/Ty's have.Note: The stock Mitsubishi turbos on Syclones can easily be upgraded. The Syclone makes 280 HP stock,guys have run the stock turbo up to 320 HP. On the next upgrade/bigger direct replacement Mitsu turbo ,the TD06H-20G, http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/syclone-typhoon-tech-forum/210818-turbo-sale.htmlwhich I dynoed my stock longblock made 386 HP & 550ft lbs of torque. I then upgrade the compressor wheel to a 60-1 wheel,estimated HP is 400+ . What is holding back having more power is by me switching to a 14 CM turbine housing,,, but, I would need @ least a stall of 2600-2800 rpm. Holding off till later for the converter swap. Below are pics of a stock Syclone compressor wheel & a 60-1 wheel installed in a stock/modified compressor housing. I made the billet 3" inlet from the previous 2.75" inlet.    I also tried different CM turbine housings,here is a 14 cm, 10cm,& 8 cm,the 12cm is on my Syclone as we speak.   as you can probably tell or maybe think,,, I do actual testing on cars on the street/track not just typing on keyboards. I have owned my Syclone since 1998 & the first turbo build I did was back in 1987 on a 1980 VW Schirroco(SP)fun project BTW & quick! MBHD
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While there are gains to be made by switching to a turbo-only cam, the stocker will work for now. Just get a set of "trw 7000 rpm springs" for sbc and swap them in, change the valve seals at the same time. I don't know what they're really called, but the old timer at the NAPA should. For someone on an extreme budget (which is both of us) Master Power makes inexpensive turbos that are pretty reliable. Chinese ebay turbos are a roll of the dice, some people get 10 minutes out of them, others have raced them successfully for multiple seasons. I think quality of install plays a large part in that.
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What type of internals would I need if I were running high boost regularly (15-20psi) and what would be the limits if I did runs even more than that? I've heard that people use the stock crank for 1000hp+ in Brazil so a machined stock crank should be fine right? I know forged steel stuff is what I need so forged rods with ARP bolts should be what I need right? Lastly, the only pistons I can find are cast aluminum. Do pistons need to be strong? I'm not sure if that's a stupid question but I know they aren't subjected to rapidly changing angles, just up and down motion. So would cast aluminum be ok for high performance applications? It should be about $600 for internals so that's not that bad.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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The cast pistons would be bad idea. You want forged pistons for sure. Check with Tlowe (Tom), I'm pretty sure he can supply you with a good quality forged piston.
".....don't give up a TURBO more than makes up for all of this BS." Turbo-6
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The cast pistons would be bad idea. You want forged pistons for sure. Check with Tlowe (Tom), I'm pretty sure he can supply you with a good quality forged piston. Yeah, I expected that would be a bad idea... Out of curiosity, how would a piston fail??
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Cast pistons are very brittle. A engine that could/ would see that kind of boost will certainly experience some type of detonation. Detonation would tear cast piston ring lands off in short order.
I do have nice forged 250 and 292 pistons available on my website.
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snowman4839
forged pistons are the way to go.
I would not go over .030 overbore if you do not need to.
MBHD
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I would not go over .030 overbore if you do not need to.
MBHD
Why no more than .030 over?
".....don't give up a TURBO more than makes up for all of this BS." Turbo-6
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Cast pistons are very brittle. A engine that could/ would see that kind of boost will certainly experience some type of detonation. Detonation would tear cast piston ring lands off in short order.
I do have nice forged 250 and 292 pistons available on my website. Looking at them, they are high compression pistons. Would they be suitable for turbocharging with a 9.5+:1 compression ratio?
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A low 9's compression ratio can be had with a head that has a larger than 74CC chamber. This can easily be done when relieving around the intake valve.
The turbo 250 used these exact same design pistons.
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[quote=copo-rat Why no more than .030 over? [/quote]
Just to keep the bores more stable & better sealing ,less chance of cyl bore distortion.
MBHD
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Instead of getting a 2.5" log manifold, can I build off of these headers? http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pts/2309657392.html
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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They will work, but will be hard to fab to a turbo flange. They will also get very hot and most probably lose shape.
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Well then it seems like my only choice to make a turbo setup is a log manifold or a SPA manifold... Am I right?
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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The easiest would be to just get the SPA manifold, period....There are other choices, fabbing your own,having someone make one for you. Running the Langdon cast headers & mount the turbo on the passenger side. More involved,long run of tubing to the turbo. Just save up & get a SPA manifold from Mr Hotrod6 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/194-230-2...=item2c5be098d1this would be my choice for you. The more simple way to go as far as mounting a tubo. Any other Q's ask away. MBHD
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Well I know SPAs are about $600 new so what do they cost used? because my max would be about $350 or $400 if I save this summer.
And I'm planning on getting a different engine so that I can do the work in my leisure and not worry about throwing it together one weekend and throwing it back in and hoping it works... As well as the fact, I can leave the original engine low-milage and untouched internally. Anyone know where to look for a 250 in the midsouth in the low $100s? I've seen quite a few running 250s on craigslist for $100-150 but they're all around 3-4 hours away... Also since I'm planning on machine work, can I look for 194s and 230s since the 250 is just a stroked 230 and the 230 has the same bore as a 250 and I can bore the 194 to a 230 and then put a 250 crank in it? Or are there some problems with compatibility?
Lastly, not to add to all of the plan changing or anything, but since I've decided to get a project engine, this provides the opportunity for a 292... Would this just add to the confusion? Or would it be a worthwhile investment? Or is it not good to put in an a-body car? I know they have different motor mounts, I think different clutch mounts, and different fuel pump lobe placement than a 250. Is it just more trouble than it's worth? I just thought I'd throw the idea out there because I can get one for about the same price as a 250.
EDIT: and for the hell of it, what do you guys expect my horsepower limits would be with forged rods and pistons and the stock crank (which I've read is VERY strong). Because if I do end up getting all of that, could I just throw a big turbo on it, tune it, and drag it on the weekends?
Last edited by snowman4839; 04/27/11 10:04 PM.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Well I know SPAs are about $600 new so what do they cost used? because my max would be about $350 or $400 if I save this summer.
The problem is there are not many here in the US, so used would most likely be hard to find.
And I'm planning on getting a different engine so that I can do the work in my leisure and not worry about throwing it together one weekend and throwing it back in and hoping it works... As well as the fact, I can leave the original engine low-milage and untouched internally. Anyone know where to look for a 250 in the midsouth in the low $100s? I've seen quite a few running 250s on craigslist for $100-150 but they're all around 3-4 hours away... Also since I'm planning on machine work, can I look for 194s and 230s since the 250 is just a stroked 230 and the 230 has the same bore as a 250 and I can bore the 194
NO! 194 block cannot bore that big.
to a 230 and then put a 250 crank in it? Or are there some problems with compatibility?
I say, w/todays gas prices, better off building a smaller engine like a 250,,, if you want more power from a 250, turn up the boost along w/tuning
It's easier to get better mileage from a smaller engine than the big 292 IMO
Lastly, not to add to all of the plan changing or anything, but since I've decided to get a project engine, this provides the opportunity for a 292... Would this just add to the confusion? Or would it be a worthwhile investment? Or is it not good to put in an a-body car? I know they have different motor mounts, I think different clutch mounts, and different fuel pump lobe placement than a 250. Is it just more trouble than it's worth? I just thought I'd throw the idea out there because I can get one for about the same price as a 250.
EDIT: and for the hell of it, what do you guys expect my horsepower limits would be with forged rods and pistons and the stock crank (which I've read is VERY strong). Because if I do end up getting all of that, could I just throw a big turbo on it, tune it, and drag it on the weekends?
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350-500 HP to the wheels. can be done pretty easy w/the correct supporting parts. So with my parts, I should pretty easily be able to keep up with my dad's 400 and his turbo 400 tranny? His stock is rated at 340hp and 440ft/lbs. But stock is also 10.25:1 comp. ratio and he's lowering that some, but he also got the heads ported and polished, headers, and a large cam. Other than that, it's pretty much stock internally. I should be getting to see it on the dyno next week so I can probably give myself a good guess how tuff building the 250 to keep up with him is going to be.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Just so we are on the same page.
What engine are you talking about?
Your built engine on the side, or adding parts to your stock engine in your car now?
Be specifc on the parts you are talking about.
I have seen people w/300 HP 350's 400 Firebirds 455's Ponchos run anywheres from 10 sec to 16 & 17 second 1/4 mile times.
All depends on there tune, set-up for racing etc.
I have seen engines do pretty good on a dyno & run like a pig once installed & taken to a track, so there are a lot of varibles.
Take your dads car to a track & see how it runs, then make that an ET for you to beat.
MBHD
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Snowman, One thing I have mentioned before. Not sure if the SPA manifold will fit into your chassis with a 250. The turbo will probably conflict with the steering shaft. There is a 292 in mine with almost the same chassis (mine is a chevy, yours is a buick) but still nearly the same chassis. My turbo is within 1/4" And has rubbed at some time because it leaves marks on the shaft. With a 250 being much shorter than a 292, this is going to put the turbo into a big conflict. SPA with T3 on ebay, why pay more? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SPA-Turbo...sQ5fAccessoriesCheckout how far out and down the turbo sits on a 250. 
Last edited by tlowe #1716; 04/28/11 12:20 AM.
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Ok from now on, I will ALWAYS be talking about a 250 that I'm going to use in my 69 buick special that I want to put forged rods and pistons in, turbo on, spa manifold, offy intake, holley 390, turbo cam and valvetrain and will be using 3.23 posi or 3.42 posi rear-end and a 3 speed manual or 3 speed manual w/ overdrive. ALL MODS will be going on the other engine I'm going to get soon. I just put the four barrel on because it was a relatively easy swap and some people reported better mileage.
Where might the turbo hit? On the bottom? Is the adapter just pushing the turbo out past where it would hit the steering shaft? Would I need to make my own adapter? Is the adapter really just a spacer?
My dad is going to use a buick BB 400 with a turbo 400 and 3.42 posi.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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I believe that was just an offset spacer.
I am not sure it will work or not, so ask people & see if it will fit to be sure. His spacer moves turbo up & outwards.
You could use spacers on the engine mounts to raise engine & clear the steering shaft.Not my first choice,but would work.
Install a rack & pinion steering set-up.
The 3 spd saginaw trans has poor gear ratios,,, but, if you must.
Last thing, sometimes our 6's are not the fastest as compared to those V-thingys, so putting your car on a diet is always good.
MBHD
12 port SDS EFI
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I believe that was just an offset spacer.
I am not sure it will work or not, so ask people & see if it will fit to be sure. His spacer moves turbo up & outwards.
You could use spacers on the engine mounts to raise engine & clear the steering shaft.Not my first choice,but would work.
Install a rack & pinion steering set-up.
The 3 spd saginaw trans has poor gear ratios,,, but, if you must.
Last thing, sometimes our 6's are not the fastest as compared to those V-thingys, so putting your car on a diet is always good.
MBHD Well by diet, I assume you mean loosing extra weight... and I'm not keeping the saginaw 3 speed, I'm probably going to try to find a chevy 3 speed + OD. I've been looking at the A833 they used in chevy trucks in the 80s. What do you consider good gear ratios? 2.5:1,1.5:1,1:1? I'm assuming you don't like how the saginaws have a high first gear... am I right? well the A833 isn't any better then... it has a 3.09:1 first.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Yes, car could loose weight.
Any Saginaw 4 speed would have better gear spacing than your 3 spd.
A high first gear is ok, but if it's too high like more than 3.09 ,your car would most likely not boost too much in first gear, (not much of a load on the engine) especially if you install a turbine A/R of .96 or higher.
So , if you keep your 3.23's through 3.55's a first gear of 3.09 is fine.
I just like automatics when it comes to turbos's, you can brake stall them & launch w/boost, much easier than a car w/manual trannys.
MBHD
12 port SDS EFI
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alright then. Because like I was saying in the other thread, I REALLY need that OD.
This is a question more directed at tom. I know that tom built that simple turbo setup and he mentioned that he had to mill the bottom off of the clifford to get it to fit with the SPA. Would that a problem with the offy intake?
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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snowman2839
The offy does clear the SPA mainifold by at least a 1/8 of a inch.And with it sitting that close you wouldn't need to worry about heating the intake.
Larry/Twisted6 [oooooo] Adding CFM adds boost  God doesn't like ugly.
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