Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected snowman4839 turbo build

Just thought I'd start a topic for you that will pertain to your build & technical questions.

No thread stealing or other topics allowed here.

snowman4839,
if you focus & stay on track,we will help you out,but focus please.
I know you are thinking of a million things you can do or would want to do to your ride.
Just take one step @ a time & you can get it done.You can start your own topic,just thought I'd give you something to think about.

MBHD

haha thanks Hank. Like I told you in the message, I'm working on the windshield at the moment so that I can drive it to school and not have it leak if it rains while I'm in class.

I'm just trying to flush out all the ideas I have and think of different combinations before I start buying things that I might not need or be able to use and then end up wasting the little money that I have. I know it seems like I'm bombarding you with questions but that's why I seem to go off onto tangents and change my mind every month. But I do have a general plan that you guys have helped with some...

- Offenhauser 4 barrel intake #5416
- An edelbrock 600cfm? 4 barrel
- T3/T04e turbo with BOV
- Stock exhaust manifold with fabbed piping for the turbo. (or would I need a certain type of exhaust manifold?)
- Turbo Cam and valvetrain (who sells those? tlowe?)
- HEI

When I get some money saved up and have a summer of free time...
- Head work. (port and polish)
- Lump ports
- Block work (bore and hone. shave deck?)
- Stronger crank, rods, and pistons so I can run higher PSI
- Raise Compression? (What would that entail? Would it be worth it? Would I have to run CRAZY octane to keep from knocking because wouldn't high compression + high psi = ridiculous octane necessity? I hear that 194 head would raise it but wouldn't that restrict flow a lot? Shave the deck?)
- Lump ports

That's mostly it. I said in my other thread that I ordered Santucci's second edition book which pre-orders were supposed to ship today (but probably tomorrow since today is a weekend day). I probably check out the library for a turbo book.

EDIT: What would the project HP/Trq be with THIS setup?

If you can find one,,,get the truck 292 exhaust manifold w/the larger outlet.
I think an Edelbrock AVS carb would be easier to adjust than the AFB, for adustability on the secondaries,but the AFB is more of a performance carb. Anyone else ? Carb info.

600 CFM is OK,but mileage not as good as a 500 CFM carb.
All depends on your goals.
I would suggest Comp cams for a camshaft,but there ar others.
The 194 is a good head & Sissells or Larry can get it flow just fine,it's not a restriction.

But,,,, if you are getting pistons
,more than likely,you would not need a 194 head also.
So use your cyl head you have & buy those pistons for $300.
You can turn down the center on a lathe to reduce the compression,otherwise compression would be about 9.5:1 approx. A bit high for non computer controlled turbocharged engine.

Raise compression,pistons yes,9.0:1 is fine,$600 approx,but there forged & made for boost.,milling head,50-$100
That one guy has forged 307 pistons for $300,did they sell here?
This guy had them:
https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=6
That will save you $300.There a bit heavy,but that's OK.

Yep, shave deck to get a zero deck.
Stock crank is strong,get turned & shot peened,maybe heat treat if needed.,Crower or Scat rods.

You can run stock compression & not worry as much about detonation & having to run high octane gas. It would be just a bit sluggish when out of boost.

If you build a nice longblock,ported head,camshaft,intercooled,meth inj,I can say an easy 325-450 HP (@ the wheels) range on 18-22 psi range & a lot more torque than 400 Ft lbs.Just thinking off the top of my head,so it's just a guess. There are many many variables.
BTW, this is just a ball park figure,depends on your tunning ability also.

MBHD

is the 18-22psi streetable? and what things would get the best gas mileage besides using a 500cfm over a 600cfm?

Yes that's streetable.
As long as you have meth injection & the correct electronics to protect your engine.

I run 20-23 psi on 91 octane on my V-6.
It's that high because the heads are that restrictive.

Hmmm, better gas mileage,,,stay out of boost.
Run as much total timing as possible when out of boost.
Hard to do when you do not have electrical devise to say when & where you want high total timing.
MBHD

well I'm looking at getting HEI and an MSD box when I get the money

For the MSD box, you may want to buy a BTM (Boost Timing Master) this allows pulling of timing when boost is sensed. You do not want to buy parts twice. Tom

What octane gas do you have to use? 93,91,94?

If it's 91 octane,you will most likely need alky injection @ 22 psi. Even the 93 & 94 will have a problem supressing detonation.

The more total timing you can use,the more power you will make.

Meth is a super chiller & will lower the intakes temps.

I am about done installing the alky control http://alkycontrol.com/ on my Syclone,It's a nice kit.

Hopefully when all done w/the alky control & the AEM Tru boost controller installed,I will increase the boost,faster turbo spool-up to 24-26 psi have better & adjustable boost control I will finally run 11's in the 1/4 all on pump 91 octane fuel.
It weighs 3600 lbs(no driver) street driven truck.
(sorry it's not an inline,but it's all I have running as of now )

I had the Aquamist system installed before which helped w/cooling the intake temps & supress detonation,but,the pump is not strong enough to really take advantage of injecting methanol.

When I inject methanol in the hot Syclone engine momentarily,the intake manifold instantly cools off to what feels like 40 degrees,I'll have to use my Mastercool Digital Infrared Thermometer,, I have it calibrated for work.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mastercool-52224-A-D...DefaultDomain_0


MBHD

We have 91 at the pumps

The only thing I just thought about is where to actually buy methanol. I can't really think of a place to. I've seen a few places online like http://www.amazon.com/Methanol-Methyl-Al...82430005&sr=1-4 . Where do you buy it?

Also how much did your alky kit cost? And what car did you put it on?

Previous comment: I am about done installing the alky control http://alkycontrol.com/ on my Syclone,It's a nice kit.

Cost:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alkycontr...sQ5fAccessories

I believe Methanol should cost 2-5 dollars a gallon.

Walmart sells a product called :HEAT: it's in a yellow plastic bottle. High % of methanol in Heat.

Go kart places sells it.
VP racing fuel sells it,chemicle distributers & so-on.




MBHD

Ok Guys an updtae on my alkycontrol set-up installed in my Syclone.
First impression is WOW! this is a huge difference from the Aquamist 1S system I previously had on it.
I dont even have methanol in the tank yet & that will be an even better improvement. I am running 99% isopropyl alky.

As I always stated,if your going to run a turbo or blower on pump gas,always install a methanol alky system,it's awesome!!!!
My 1S Aquamist system was non progressive,but the alkycontrol kit is a progressive system.
Product support is great also.

MBHD

well that's good Hank. What's different about it?

And is alky short for alcohol or is it a brand?

Also why are you running isopropyl as opposed to methanol?

And my biggest fear is destroying my built engine so would I be able to hear it knock if I had the turbo and stuff on it? I have trouble hearing it stock and N/A.

Methanol is somewhat more corrosive, shouldn't use steel holding tank or fittings unless you can purge them after use.
Methanol has the highest energy content per liter, and the highest latent heat (which is what determines how much cooling): 473 BTU per lb vs iso at 335 or ethanol at 364. Straight water is far better at 970, but it doesn't burn - alcohol gives you back some of the energy.
Any common alcohol is available at any chemical plant or laboratory supply house (no, you don't want pharmaceutical grade), and most big paint stores.
You can make your own system at a fraction of the cost, but you pretty much have to know what you're doing, and the commercial stuff is easy to adjust and uses less liquid for the effect.

snowman4839,

The difference between the two systems is mainly the pump.
The Aquamist 1S pump cannot deliver that much alcohol(AKA ALKY)

The newer Aquamist systems are using the same type of pumps as the most injection kits,Like shureflow.

I ran out of methanol ,so I only had isopropyl in the garage,so that's what I put in there for the time being.

With the 1S Aquamist system,I could bring the engine rpm up to 2000-2500 (in park) ,turn on the pump & would inject methanol & the engine would not load up or miss from it pumping in the meth.

With the alkycontrol system,I could turn 3000 (in park)turn on the alkycontrol pump & even on the lowest setting, it would cause the engine to miss,run rough & load up the engine.

So basically saying,the alkycontrol system sprays a lot more alky.

All the forums I have been on, most all the guys running an alcohol injection system have tried water/methanol mixtures of 50/50 60/40 & so-on.

They all agree,running 100% meth is what makes the most HP & torque & supresses detonation better.

It has been proven time & time again on dynos & @ the track.

I suggested Tlowe to install a meth inj kit for years,we will see when & if he ever gets around to installing one.

One of the best mods you can do for a turbo or supercharged engine. Can't emphasize this enough guys,really, this is & has been a great mod to install for a street or street/race car.

I have been using it for years & it is just about as good as race gas or equal to race gas performance in certain cases. Anyways,it's a lot cheaper to use than buying race gas all the time.

Some guys even take out there intercooler & just run a meth inj kit instead.
They use methanol as there intercooler,a chemical intercooler.
Reduces air charge temperatures by 50-150+ degrees
Reduces cylinder temperatures by up to 300+ degrees
Increases your 87-93 octane pump gas by 8-20+ points
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Removes carbon build-up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Reduces and helps eliminate engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives


July 1981 Hot Rod magazine

Fuel, combustion heat (BTU), Octane, Stoichiometric A/F

Gasoline, 115000, 86(maybe), 14.7:1
Methanol, 57000, 91, 6.4:1
Ethanol, 76000, 92, 9.0:1
Isopropyl, 86000, 99, 10.3:1

MBHD

I've been thinking about building my up pipe and j pipe out of sheet metal. Is there any advantage to using actual pipe?

I've also been wondering... What's the power curve gonna be like? Is it gonna have no low end power and then surge at like 2500 rpm when the boost comes in fully?

Using pipe will be much easier to form than using sheetmetal.

The tq will increase with boost. It only depends on when the boost starts coming in. You will notice the increase with little as 1 PSI. Tom

Power curve,,,, well that depends on your turbo selection & camshaft & compression & tuning & ect.

Schedule 40 NSP weld els tubing will work the best & is cheap
Look here to give you an idea

http://www.sdsefi.com/techheader.htm ,these pipes are ready to weld & are real tough.

MBHD

Alright, I know it's been awhile but the reason I didn't want to use pipe is because I don't have a way to bend it.

Someone mentioned I should get a 292 exhaust manifold for more flow and a bigger outlet.
So is this what it should look like? The outlet looks like it's in a weird place compared to my 250 exhaust manifold or maybe I just hallucinating. Would this bolt onto a 250 head without mods??

The pipes I metioned to get are from McMaster Carr,,they schedule weld els,no bending,just pieces to weld only,did you look @ McMaster Carr?
Here are pics of the weldable fittings.
http://sdsefi.com/techheader.htm

The exhaust manifold probably has a different location for the exit,but that should not matter.
It bolts right onto your cylinder head.

If it has a 2.5" outlet ,then that is the correct one.
Good price,jump on it if it has a 2.5" outlet or @ least close to a 2.5" outlet.
You could also use these http://app.ecwid.com/image/3280809?ownerid=149402 (I wanted to @ one time) run the 2 pipes into one pipe before the turbo & have the turbo mounted on the passenger side to give you a little more room to play with.


MBHD

Well it's official guys! Just got the first part to my turbo build! I just turned 16 yesterday and I asked my parents and they got me a Offy 5416 with a rebuilt holley 390 for $225 so I think it's a pretty amazing deal.

http://augusta.craigslist.org/pts/1950580052.html

Thats a start and a good price as well. Tom

Snowman, good deal. When I turned 16 I had the '38 Ford coupe that my brother gave me. He got it for $15. It was running a Flat V8 that my dad and I built. Family is wonderful!!! Friends are OK too. Beater

Haha $15??? Man... Now THERE'S a deal...

So would the 292 exhaust port be bigger than the 250 and be big enough to where it'll have suffcient flow for a turbo setup? It just seems odd to use a stock manifold for a high-performance setup.

You may want to check to see if the truck 2 1/2 manifold will fit your chassis. It does move the exh outlet quite abit forward. Tom

Done a couple of blow through setups and a very small carb seems to work better. I did a blow through BBC with 2 450 Holleys in a box. Made 960hp at 5600 and 9psi on a 502 boat with iron heads. People I talked to said the smaller carbs would run better than even 600s. I didn't argue, but the customer was very pleased.
I did a 250 blow through in a 62 Chevy II and got the best results with a Ford Autolite 2barrel from a Ford truck. I still have it and will look for numbers if you want. You can get them for cheap and they are bulletproof.
Turbo makes the air denser, not faster so a carb big enough to run your engine NA will run it just fine with boost
Also, annular boosters work best.
You might check on The Turbo Forums for blow through carb info-they have a lot of great info on this!!!

Thanks hotrodrobert. I'm actually thinking about maybe running a large two barrel a little bit. It would be fantastic if you could dig up those turbo 250 numbers.

Hey guys, just out of curiosity... If I do manage to make 350-450 hp out of this thing, if I drive like a normal perso. Without getting into the turbo and short shifting it, what type of mileage would I get? Or at least what type of mileage do you guys get with similar setups

With no overdrive, maybe 15. With overdrive 18-21. Just my guess from my experience. Tom

For mileage, my Chevy II got upper teens with a 3.73 gear and a 350 turbo. I didn't drive it long enough to really get the mileage up and a gear would have helped a lot or overdrive.
I had a draw through on a 70 Nova with a 3.08 gear that got consistent low to mid 20's as a daily driver for years. It was a 4 speed and driving hard made it suck gas.
I am redoing the Chevy II now probably with a 292. I haven't decided on fuel delivery yet but I would consider a blow through 2v on that engine too. Figure the air flow you need na and use that for the size you need for best driveability and the turbo will take care of the power. Use the power valve to richen the mixture under boost and leave the jets small for mileage.
Holley uses the formula (RPM x CID)/3456 to get the needed cfm.

Wow. Didn't realize it would be that good. That's what my dad's 09 chevy colorado gets (16-19mpg). well cool. That means I won't go broke driving it after I fix it all up.

Still really interested in those dyno numbers hotrodrobert.

Just wanted to let you guys know that I finally got santucci's book. I just went ahead and got his first edition on ebay. There's some REALLY good stuff in here. Thanks for recommending it. Next up is Corky Bell's turbo book. Do any of you guys know Santucci? Just wondering because the inliner community seems pretty tight-knit.

Where would I get an HEI dist? A junkyard? I'm not sure if these are stupid questions but does it have to be 194/230/250 specific or can I also use a 292 hei or can I just use a straight 6 or v6 hei?

The only place I know to get it is stovebolt but that's like a little over $100.

A junkyard is a good start. 250's and 292's started using them in 1974 or 75.
Keep in mind a rebuild is a good thing to plan on.

A spring/ weight kit and a vacum advance can with possibly a higher output coil are also in order. It will use different wires than you present point type dist, so why not wait to buy the wires?

There are some that have two shafts, (= more slop)& others have a single shaft = (preferred.)
When I used to go to the junk yards,I used to find more split shaft distributers than the solid one one piece.
The split shafts are held together w/a roll pin.
Also, there are many w/internal coil in the cap & less external coils,1 or 2 years made that way?

IIRC,1975 ,was the first year on inline 6's for HEI's
Also, the plug gap that year was excessive,the following year ,the GM reduced the plug gap to improve passing emmissions easier.


MBHD

Well I'm working on getting and HEI dist from 56er but I gotta wait for him to dig them up.

Wouldn't it make more sense to get headers and then join the two collectors into a turbo flange? I've been doing some reading about what other people have done and it seems that the stock iron manifold (even the 2.5in one) isn't good for anything except for stock or slightly above stock setups. Would there be any noticeable difference between a joined-header-to-flange setup and just making an up-pipe off of the stock manifold?

I'll hopefully be getting the offenhauser and holley 390 in the next few days. The guy said he'd be around my town on thanksgiving but he hasn't answered his phone today and I've called him twice. If he doesn't respond, I'll just look into getting a clifford. I read a writeup someone wrote about different intakes with the same carb and the clifford seems to be nearly identical in the lower performance and slightly better in the high performance applications.

If I were on a tighter budget than I am I would run the 2.5" cast manifold with the J-pipe just you. In fact, I honestly wonder if I went the right direction. You will make quite a bit of horsepower before this setup will be holding you back enough to require a change. Making clifford or langdon shorties into a single turbo header will be a lot more complex and not a whole lot faster.

alrighty thanks.

at what psi would that cause a restriction?

This I can't tell you with any certainty. I would bet that you would be in 400's before this is your problem, but that is just an educated guess. 400 real horsepower ain't hay - it would be what I call a "90%er" - tuned well with matched gears, it will beat 90% of the cars out there. Although this isn't a direct comparison, lots of LS1 guys are building 800+ horsepower turbo engines off truck manifolds turned forward. I have seen multiple 400+ hp 2.3L ford turbo engines built off a stock turbo manifold as well. And Hank will undoubtedly be able to tell of 650+ hp SyTy's on stock manifolds was well.

During a conversation with the guy from Sissell's (My mind draws a blank on his name you guys know who I'm referring to - Mike?) and he recommended limiting boost to 14# on the inlines. 13# on the squirrel performance website turbo calculator would make 425hp on a 250. So for 12-13# boost and 400hp, the 292 manifold and a steel pipe elbow is simple, easy, cheap, durable, and well matched to the power output. Cheap easy and effective - that's how I like it!

Anything smaller than the turbine inlet.

If the truck manifold is really 2.5" , running a 2.5 "J" pipe,you can make quite a bit of power.


The problem/design flaw w/the stock manifold is not having equal flow from all the exhaust ports, sharp 90 degree bends,etc..

There are plenty of people that have used a ugly log type turbo manifold & have made a lot of power.
IIRC, Leo's 292 turbo ex manifold is not too pretty & is basically a log type manifold & his engine makes good power.PG. 143.Power manual.

I believe he could make more power from a better designed manifold,but like I stated earlier, you can make good to great power even w/log type turbo ex manifolds.

The record power from a 250 CI turbo L6 w/a SPA turbo manifold is around 780 HP,single turbo.
The SPA manifold is pretty well designed,but for all out power,a tubular ex turbo manifold will make more power.

As 56er stated,guys can make a lot of HP & more torque w/stock Syclone/Typhoon manifolds,around 740-750 range on pump 93 octane fuel.
BTW,the Sy/Ty manifolds look & are very restrictive,but up to a certain level oh HP they still work fine.
Let me post a pic if I can find one,,,,,hmmmmm,
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42926&highlight=exhaust+manifold+pics&page=2 3rd pic from top of pg.
Just 1 side to give you an idea ,plus the ports do not match up to the heads,turbo flange has a mismatch also.

The turned around ( FWD facing ) LS manifolds look almost like headers & many people run those & weld on v-band flanges to bolt on turbo/s


MBHD

So if it's not going to be making copious amounts of power, I should be fine? Ok. Well I'm going to probably using the stock manifold and not the truck exh mani. Would that .25in make that much difference?

Alrighty! Christmas is coming up and my parents told me to buy $200 worth of parts for christmas so I get to choose :-))). I really need help choosing a turbo and I'm not sure which A/R ratios to choose. I'm assuming the A/R should be relatively small since I'm not going to be running high boost until much later. I'm going to buy my stuff off of ebay so that's where I'll give examples from.

T3/T04e .63 A/R turbo (is this anything close to what I need?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T04E-6...#ht_4635wt_1167

Wastegate (I'm assuming since I'm fabricating the setup, I can choose any wastegate right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/38mm-TURB...#ht_3146wt_1167

B.O.V. (fabrication means any B.O.V. too right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Type-RS-T...#ht_5825wt_1167

Intercooler (anyone that I can make fit right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/28X9X2-25...7#ht_2869wt_941

money has been a bit tight saving up for this stuff (among other things) so I haven't gotten corky's turbo book yet. Let me know what you guys think.