Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected snowman4839 turbo build

The truck manifold is supposed to be .500" bigger.
So yes, 1/2 inch is going to make a difference in the top end power output.

Ask guys here if they have one for sale.


MBHD

I thought the normal 250 was 2.25" and the 3 bolt 292 was 2.5"

Since I was taking pics, here is difference between solid and pinned shaft.

Solid:

pinned:

56er,
Nice to see the pics ,thanks for that.
Now people can see what I was mentioning in an earlier post.

[/quote] 56er

Since I was taking pics, here is difference between solid and pinned shaft.

Solid:

pinned: [/quote]

I think the pinned shaft was to lessen dist. gear wear for shaft missalignment. I have always ran one even with a HV high pressure oil pump with no problems.

Harry

Interseting. Maybe that's why I always wore out my distributer gears w/the solid one piece shaft w/a high volume oil pump?

But,,,,, I also use a solid shaft one piece w/standard volume oil pump w/no wear problems. Same block, just changed pump & no problems.

As far as High Volume and High Pressure oil pumps go, Mellings web sight stated that only more pressure could put more wear on a dist. gear and shaft. Both pumps have the same relief springs so the pressure is the same with either pump.

So with either pump wear should be the same if everything else is the same.

I like the pin style and have not any problems, I even shim my spring to a higher rate than stock to help the oil wedge in case of detonation.

Harry

Hmm ,strange.
Because when I switched to a high volume mellings pump over there stock volume mellings pump, my pressure went up quite a bit.
Then I put a stock mellings pump back in pressure went down.
The mellings pumps were called high volume high pressure pumps arn't they? Higher volume & higher pressure.No?
At least that's what happened when I swapped pumps.


MBHD

Even with the stock spring, pressure will be up at all points before the bypass opens.

I've had the same experience with the pressure going up and just figured that the increased volume moving thru the pump increased the pressure?

The maximum pressure is going to be either:
1. the relief valve spring setting, or
2. the highest the pump can deliver if the bearings are really loose, SAE 5 oil, etc.

An exception is where the bypass port is simply too small to dump enough volume (almost all stock pumps), and pressure rises above the relief setting. This is why you see these comments: "My cold pressure is 70, but when it warms up it's 40". This is not poor quality control or a defective pump: it's a design error.

MBHD, The HV Mellings pump is only High Volume the relief spring is the same on the pumps.

Mellings states that HV pumps are not harder on the dist. gears just flow more volume.

The point I was trying to make why not run one for the extra safety of knowing you have enough oil flow.

Everyone thought dist. gear wear was from higher pressure of the HV pump, but it's from missalignment of the dist.gear to the camshaft gear.

Harry

How to put this?
A larger pump always pumps more volume. There's no way to do that without more load on the drive.
The fact that the extra oil doesn't reach the crank is irrelevant.

I can only comment on my own personal experience.

After wearing out 2-3 camshafts from Clifford including the new distributer gears quickly.
Also did the same on an American racing cam.

I decided to install a standard volume Mellings oil pump.
Same engine,I just dropped the pan in the car,installed a new standard Mellings pump & installed a new dizzy gear again.

I never had a problem with wearing out the drive on the camshaft & never had to change distributer gears.

Maybe I had something else going on?

Those are the reasons I just run standared volume pumps,also IIRC, Mike Kirby told me a standard pump is fine to use.

Maybe on my new engine I might try a HV pump again,,
Just a glutton for punishment?


MBHD

Hank you could have also had a soft cam core as well. That could have been a bad batch that Clifford had and not have realized it. Many times when guys rebuild an engine, they reuse their old thrust plates and spacer, when they should really be thrown away and replaced. I bet no one here has ever thought to check their cam thrust endplay when they build an engine. That is the leading cause of distributor gear wear, more so than HV or high pressure oil pumps are. Thats why most race engines use a cam button in the end of their cams to limit, because they will eat a gear up in a hurry if they don't.

Panic,

My last post on this subject, it's ok to disagree.

Mellings says load can only be caused from pressure, resistance of flow causes pressure, the relief spring is what sets the oil pressure.

Harry

Melling is giving, shall we say, a far simpler explanation than what they know to be the truth.
You can leave both the discharge port and relief valve open, and remove the bearings - and it still requires power to turn the gears.
If you figure out how to make a larger pump produce more flow without any additional drag you should patent it - it's never been done, because it's impossible.

Well I'm going to try and buy a HEI dist from 56er. So the pinned shaft will be fine? http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Distributer%20pics/DSCN1899.jpg (on the right)
I still don't understand the difference between pinned and solid.

And back to my questions before it kinda got off topic...
Would these work?
T3/T04e .63 A/R turbo (is this anything close to what I need?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T04E-6...#ht_4635wt_1167

Wastegate (I'm assuming since I'm fabricating the setup, I can choose any wastegate right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/38mm-TURB...#ht_3146wt_1167

B.O.V. (fabrication means any B.O.V. too right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Type-RS-T...#ht_5825wt_1167

Intercooler (anyone that I can make fit right?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/28X9X2-25...7#ht_2869wt_941

And just out of curiosity... I was watching a video of this guy with a like a 3 Liter I-6 2JZ engine in his 96 or so Toyota supra. He made like 650hp at ~19psi and 950hp and ~40psi. He had forged pistons and rods and everything. Why couldn't you make that kind of horsepower with another liter of disp. and the same types of mods?

Its already been done. Just takes deep pockets. Several guys in Brazil are getting close to 1000 HP out of their combos, but they are using 12 port heads and heavily modified engines with main girdles and other $$$$ parts to handle that kind of HP level.

[img][/img]

Because that's a dual overhead cam 4 valve per cylinder engine with vastly superior cylinder head development, better cylinder head sealing, more efficient cooling system, much larger engineering margins, designed to be turbocharged with significantly more aftermarket support. That engine is probably turning 8 grand. And you can drive it on the street like that. A 250 radical enough to spin 8 grand will not be streetable at all. You just can't squeeze a chevy 6 that hard, the head and block decks are just too thin. We're fighting a poor head design as well. I had one of these to put in my 71 mustang with 272 cams, a header, HX40 turbo, and greddy i'c (600hp setup), then Fast & Furious Tokyo drift came out and suddenly I was a copycat, so I sold it. I wonder sometimes if I shouldn't have kept it and used it, but the 292 will look so much more appropriate, and you just can't beat that chevy 6 sound.

alright. I expected the 4 valves per cylinder had something to do with it lol.

But would those parts work??? I REALLY need to buy them so they'll get here by christmas but I want to check with you guys first.

Could you repost the links to the parts,they expired.
Thanks

MBHD

sorry bout that.

T3/T04e turbo .63 compressor A/R
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T04E-T...s#ht_7752wt_941

Wastegate (Does it really matter which one since I'm going to fabricate the setup?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/38mm-TURB...#ht_3224wt_1167

Intercooler (2.5" for the 2.5" exhaust manifold)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/UNIVERSAL...#ht_4012wt_1010

B.O.V. (again does it matter since I'm fabricating the setup?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Universal...#ht_5777wt_1167

and I'm going to get a 2.5" truck exhaust manifold. I also assume I need a bigger fuel pump so what kind of specs should the fuel pump have?

We talked to some supra guys about this. It is the complete package. The high nickel blocks make for a durable build. When building big hp these motors dont make any power under 6000 rpm. Then they spin them up to 9-10,000 prm. They put a 150 shot of nitrous to spool the turbo. They have a FZ1FE 4.5 liter motor the looks just like the GM 4200. I would say GM borrowed there design. The 4200 can be built to make power like the 2jz. It just takes a few more parts to make the block a little stronger. That cost a little more money and turns a few poeple away from the 4200.

snowman4839,

the turbo should work ok,but just to make the install a bit easier & less parts to buy maybe use there other one like: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T04E-T...=item43a162a252

The turbine wheel is a little small,but it will work.
I run the stock type internal wastegate on my Syclone & make about 400+ HP to the wheels.
The BOV, is low dollar & I have one of those types on my Syclone & so-far it seems to hold boost & works fine.
I know you are working from a budget (me also) & all you items are low $ and should work fine on low boost aplications.
It's just when you start wanting more boost & make a lot more power is most likely when some of these parts might fail on you.

Intercooler should be fine,just try to see where your plumbing for the intercooler is going to route, so you can see how you need the ins & out of the intercooler tanks.
I made sure not to use 90 degree bends,you can if you need to ,but it will hurt in flow.


For fuel pump,I always used an electric Holley,need to research for a good mechanical pump,& boost reference off the pump,maybe someone on the BB knows of one?
You need higher psi than the boost pressure you are going to run.

MBHD

Alrighty thanks MBHD. The reason why I was lookin at the external wastegate is because I've heard that internal ones are prone to boost creep. It just seemed easier to make it external. Is that a valid worry? How would I change the pressure that an internal wastegate opens? Does it use springs like a external?

Also, do you have any idea what an the stock mech. pump fuel pressure is?

snowman4839,

External wastegates boost creep also,that's why you would use one of these or others:AEM Tru-Boost Controller Gauge Control system & Display
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-Tru-B...Q5fAccessories.
I have the tru boost on my Syclone & it holds rock steady boost pressure w/my internal wastegeted turbo.
Crack pressure is when the valve opens prematurely.
If you use a external or internal wastegate they boost creep.
Example:your internal or external wastegate will have a spring tension of say 5psi,,so when you are starting to boost up say 3 psi,,,the valve will start to open & increase the time for your turbo to spool up, (boost will be slower to rise)
W/an electronic boost controller ,if you set it to say the same 5 psi,your wastegate valve will not open until the programmed 5 psi is made.
If you are talking about boost spiking,that's a different scenario. When you are running high boost high HP aplications,the internal wastegate sometimes cannot maintain & controll your boost pressures,normally because the internal wastegate valve is too small.

When you want all the power you can get w/out causing turbulance & causeing the turbo to slow down,then you would use an external wastegate.
There are adjustale external wastegate actuators.
http://www.forgemotorsport.com/content.asp?inc=product&cat=0001&product=FMAC9000A
Ther are external actuators that ypu change the springs also.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...id=150414755376
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORGE-adj...=item1c17bde139
Or do something like this a helper spring which I added to to my Syclone.



But there are different spring tension actuators.
Mine has a boost base pressure of 15 psi,meaning my Syclones minimal boost pressure is 15 psi it cannot have any less than 15 psi,I added the adjustable external spring if I wanted some more psi.


Here is my separate wastegate, Note: the position or how far downstream I reintroduce the wastegate exhaust back into the downpipe/main exhaust system,
Also note the shallow angle it comes into the downpipe,you do not want to go in @ a 90 degree angle.Key notes to make your turbo spool faster/boost faster & more power.


This set-up is for my SPA manifold.


This would not be an optimun set-up for the wastegate rentering the downpipe,too close to the turbine wheel,& the angle the wastegate pipe renters the downpipe.This is also a SPA manifold. http://12bolt.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/PIC00019.16952756.JPG
Also note: mine is not perfect either,I did try to reduce turbulence to a minimun from the wastegate exhaust.

or another option is to run a complete separate exhaust system w/a small muffler for the wastegated exhaust.

MBHD

Here are more updated pics of my turbo set-up,sorry it's taking so long,just dont have the time mainly, that & I always work on other projects,from house to motorcycles,etc.Money would speed up the process also.

The wastegate ID tubing I used is the same size of the valve in the wastegate,if you use smaller tubing you are not taking full advantage of the wastegates big valve.







I weighed this set-up & it's guite heavy,,62 LBS
So by the time I add this set-up,intercooler,plumbing I can see pretty easy 100 lbs added to the front end of my Camaro,just what I dont want
But I am sure the power it should produce will make up for the added weight, & make me do this

MBHD

alright guys. Just got the numbers I have $512.35 to buy my turbo stuff, carb, and 4 barrel intake.

I already have the 4 barrel and intake lined up for $225. So that brings the total to $287.35.

So being the type of person so second guess myself, here's my list and I would feel more comfortable having you guess do a last-second check before spending all of my money

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T04E-T3-T...#ht_3555wt_1167
$153

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/UNIVERSAL...e#ht_2872wt_941
$30.88

and I'll just have to save a little more money and find a intercooler that'll work.

That leaves $103.47 so I'll probably use that to buy that HEI off of 56er or that 2.5" outlet 292 manifold from tlowe.

All that sound good?

EDIT: MBHD, that looks like a great setup. what is it going in?

snowman4839,

just to remind you that turbo will work for as a daily driver type set-up,it will not make a lot of power as it is on the small side,especially the turbine wheel size.
The compressor housing A/R is small also. Compressor wheel size is OK.
It will spool very quick,but for a low buck install such as yours ,it will work,just do not expect a whole lot of power that's all.
This turbo is close to the specs I would feel be a better choice.
http://cgi.ebay.com/T3T4-T04E-TURBOCHARG...=item1e60334c8f
Note: not much selection on ebay

Let me search a bit on ebay for another turbo possibly.
It will make more power than stock engine.
Here is a better choice: http://cgi.ebay.com/T3T4-T04E-TURBOCHARG...=item1e60334c8f
but the A/R on the turbine housing of .96 is too big need a .63 or so.

The BOV is a low dollar piece & it should work OK for you.

Thanks for the nod on my set-up.
It will be going into my 69 Camaro.

MBHD

snowman,
You may already know about this but http://www.searchtempest.com is a good tool for searching craigslist. I've been shopping around for welding machines for a while, waiting for a deal and it is peak season for guys to be posting up their toys(car&garage related) for sale per the request of the women who must be obeyed. I havn't seen this much movement on CL in the past couple months or so welding machine wise. G'luck with your project.

MBHD. Well now that I'm thinking about the long-term for a sec, I guess I'll go ahead and spend the money on a turbo I can use in my endgame plan with the high pressure setup. What should I be looking for in terms of specifics on the turbo? You said a small A/R of around .63. But is there a minimum/maximum inducer/exducer size or something? I probably would've just bought the one you mentioned but it was almost $200 in just shipping from AU.

Thanks 68 falconohio. I've actually used that site before to find other cars to use for parts on my or my dads car. We actually found my dad's 400ci Buick v8 and turbo 400 transmission through craigslist and it seems like I used that site to find it.

Snowman,
I know you do not want to be buying parts 2 or 3 times, now you are sounding you are putting some real thought into this. Glad to hear that.
Just to give you more to think about. I think a Turbonetics 60-1 with P trim exh wheel and a .84-.96 housing would work very good for you. I feel a .58-.63 exh housing is just too small and will choke up your engines exhaust (later). This simular in size to the one I used this year on the Turbo 250, It spooled and ran great. I use a Turbonetis 62-1 on my 292 spec'd almost identical. Tom

snowman4839,

unless you want to use a high stall converter do not go bigger than a .64 or there abouts for your turbine housing A/R.

W/a .84, you will need a stall of @ least 2800 RPM & w/a .96 3500.
Your engine will not see boost until the higher RPMs.

You engine is a 250 CI ,it's not that big.
I will promise you this, if you go w/a bigger housing, it will run like a pig w/any stall lower 2800.

With a stick/manual trans,same thing, boost will not come in till later,not good for a daily driver, not enjoyable @ all.

A .96 will be a complete dog.

I would only recommend a turbo that works on an actual street driven car, not just a dyno test,two different worlds.

A "P" wheel is fine to use.

Look @ Precsion turbos, they are making a lot of new products.
Good things I hear about them.

So,in short,you need to know if you want a quick spooling DD, or a turbo that comes in later & will make more power. or somewhere in the middle.
Personally ,I see this is your DD & using a big turbine housing will hamper your enjoyment.Later, you can upgrade to a .84 or so A/R ,but w/an automatic tran,2800 minimum stall.

So just buy a good size turbo now but run a smaller A/R on the turbine housing. You could step up to a Q trim turbine wheel also.

MBHD

Snowman,
My 2 cents would be for a 60-1 p trim w/.84 ar. I ran one of these for years will make 500+ HP. but is very good on the street. 15-18 psi boost no intercooler, blow through.

This bigger A/R keeps it from going to boost just in normal driving, but roll your foot into the gas and it goes to full boost instantly. At a stop sign hold the brake and it will go to boost.

Yes a .63 ar will boost quicker but hurt overall performance, I did not need it on my setup.

The turbine wheel is more important, the ar just fine tunes it.

Just my thoughts,
Harry

I know I really should get corky bell's book but can you guys just run me the basics so I can make a educated decision?

What determines turbo "size"? Trim size? Compressor housing choice? Turbine choice? Inducer/exducer size?

I've looked through and the T04E looks to be a fairly big compressor housing. 2" outlet, 2.75"-3.00" inlet.
I'm not exactly sure what trim I looking for but i would assume a small one. Here are the available trims on a T04E from the turbonetics site
TO4E Compressor Wheels
Inducer dia. Major dia.
40 trim 1.870 3.00
46 trim 2.003 3.00
50 trim 2.122 3.00
54 trim 2.168 3.00
57 trim 2.227 3.00
60 trim 2.285 3.00
so maybe a 46-54 trim? and larger as a need/want?
and it's you guys have already said I need either a .63 housing (mbhd) or a .84-.96 (tlowe) but I'll probably go with a a .63 because that seems to be the A/R of all of the turbos I'm looking at and I don't want to risk slow spooling.

So really wouldn't I just get a T3 (turbine)/T04E (compressor) turbo with a with a .63 A/R and a small trim and use that for my low-boost setup and then when I build the block and am ready for the high-boost setup, raise the boost and change out the blades for a higher trim?

EDIT: just saw turbo-6's comments right after I posted, so go with a little bigger A/R so boost will come in later and not destroy my mileage and get a low trim for my low boost is the direction he's going. So now it seems to be a low-medium trim and then a .7x A/R with a T3/T04E turbo. That about right?

EDITED EDIT: just read tlowe's PM and it didn't occur to me to use a compressor different than a T04x. I didn't think about using a 60-series. I seem to find more usable A/Rs in these bigger turbos. So this one seems to be about all I need? Any comments? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-Super-...#ht_3389wt_1042

EDITED EDITED EDIT: I know i need to stop editing but which is the A/R and trim that matters? the turbine or compressor side?

Harry,
when you used this turbo,need to know if you had a manual trans,auto, what stall converter.
What size engine? Compression,etc,etc.
What RPM did it hit full boost.
Need details on your combo.
Snowman would probably think you had a stock torque converter.1200-1400 stall ,got great mileage etc.

MBHD
BTW,
Snowman is looking for a daily driver,good mileage,boost quickly,low boost all on his stock longblock.
He has a manual trans.His engine is a 250, not a 292,this makes a difference.He wants it to hit full boost close to 2000 RPM.
His engine is not going to turn high rpm for now & needs a combo to work w/what he has now.

Snow,
For your turbo, here is some of the criteria you need to use to pick one.
How much CFM does your engine need at different rpms.
How many pounds of air at boost

These are used to pick the compressor. Once that is picked then the exhaust side is used to help tune the turbo. The exhaust wheel and housing can be picked individually to form a combo to get desired boost at a rpm and not be too restrictive to the engine at cruise speeds or peaky when touching the throttle in normal driving. The opposite extreme is a turbo that does not produce the desired boost or is slow to boost.

You really need to get the books to study up on this before purchasing parts. Corky's and Hugh Mc(somethin) are great books on theory. There are newer books that I have bought that do not have the same valuable info they have. They are dated but so is this technology as is carburators. Advances have been made in both as we all know.

I like T4 turbo's because of more choices available for exhaust housings, wheels ect.

Keep in mind that a turbo is not something you just take apart and change wheels on and run again. It should be rebalanced and not alot of shops have the ability to do that. Some guys don't rebalance and get away with it, that is not the norm.

Turbo6 has ALOT of experience with turbos on inlines, keep that in mind.

On my Syclone ,the housings are in CM so w/this chart I can give a bit of info on housings I have used or friends have used that I drove there Syclone. I personnaly own all the housings I made comments about.
*IIRC, turbine measures 58.8/67.2mm

If you want pics I can post them.
MHI Turbine housing areas:

6 cm2 = 0.41 A/R
7 cm2 = 0.49 A/R
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R Stock Syclone 8 CM,works great w/2100 stall
9 cm2 = 0.65 A/R
10 cm2 = 0.73 A/R Also works good w/2100 stall
11 cm2 = 0.81 A/R
12 cm2 = 0.89 A/R Takes a while to spool up needs closer to 2400
14 cm2 = 0.97 A/R Minimum 2600 w/lag, 2800 + Stall is better for fast spool-up
15 cm2 = 1.05 A/R
16 cm2 = 1.13 A/R
17 cm2 = 1.29 A/R
19 cm2 = 1.37 A/R
*Note: The Syclone engine is a 262 CI 4.3 engine,which B.T.W. is bigger thaan a 250 4.1 liter.
Now these are T3 housings That I have personnally used on my Syclone & friends Syclone,T3's flow different than a T4, a T4 will give you more lag time than a T3.

You can learn from other guys as I have about stalls needed to run .63, .84, .96 & up A/R's on T4 turbos, from journal bearing to BB. Remember the Syclone is a bigger engine than a 250.

You can also learn from guys on the Buick forums,stock engine size is 3.8,but they also run 4.1 liter 250CI & they have sponcers,that help them pick turbos & what stall to use.Those Buick guys have recipe engines & they know what works to run basic 12's, 11's 10's ,9's & faster,they made so many Buick GN's T-Types & there is a wealth oh knowledge over there on those BB's

MBHD