Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Dyno day for a 250

After going over the the dyno sheets for the 292 I have a question for the 250 test and that is will it be necessary to run as many head and cam changes on the 250? After the baseline test, if the Offy intake with cam 2 and Clifford with cam 2 are run and say cam 3 w/Offy and then the Clifford and the numerical spread in the readings is like or close to the 292 we should be able to mathematically predict at least the intake hp gains for the other cams without swapping intakes? I would still like to see a multicarb setup tested to see if the spreading out of the fuel charge has any significance. Any possible date yet for the 250 dyno pulls??

I know this isn't much of a concern for some looking for all out power, but is there a way to test fuel consumption?

Based on a stock head vs a lumped head, etc. Say, x-amount of fuel and record how long the motor will run on it? Giving us a comparitive look at how headwork can effect all aspects of an engine?

Just a random idea that might be fun to play with, since it's a controlled test environment. ALthough it might not be very cost effective.

-Sam.

That can be figured out using the FuelMass(lb/hr) readings and the EGT (exhaust gas tempertures) to give you a good idea of fuel effiency. These dyno runs were for a street engine combination and not for an all out comp engine. When Tom get the rest of the stuff out of the way you can probably read the results in the 12 Port News.

Ahh, ok. I kinda figured there'd be a better way than a crude x-amount of fuel in y-minutes, kinda thing.

And since it was/is a street test, maybe it's of more importance than I initially thought.

And Tom, please let us know a set date, etc. And when you'd like contributions in by.

-Sam.

Jalopy,
I am working on getting a 3 weber side draft setup to test with. Hope that helps.
You are correct , not as many head/ cam swaps will need to be done. Still would probably test about 6 cams. It is good to see what works and at what ranges it works.

Sam,
The BSFC#'s are exactly what you need. They show how efficient the engine is operating, atleast for us @ wide open throttle.
The lower the #, the more more efficient the engine.

No date is picked yet, Going to get started with the lower end after the new year, glad the 292 was done before the Christmas rush! Tom
Tom

You will be impressed if you can run the Webers.

What size 45 MM's?


MBHD

Not sure, will find out at a later date. This is just being hopefull. Tom

I've been thinking of one of the brazil intakes for 3x2bbls. The sidedraft webers work great as long as they're kept tuned, but because of the individual runner design, if one carb goes sour you lose 1/3 of your power.. I think our freind from FL sells these on ebay but Ive never seen one sell yet so I havce no idea of his price. http://www.engineracing.com.br/coletor%2...aquecimento.htm

The 3X2 ,2bbls should work pretty good.

The only problem I had when running 3 DCOEs of comming out of tune was just the carbs being out of sync,just a couple minutes w/a motorcycle carbs stick (mercury stick) hooked up & easy adjustment.

Even when they did come out of adjustment,it would be easy to feel the roughness & idle & when slowly excellerating,,,W.O.T. could not tell the difference if they were out of sync.

Changing jets ,emulsion tubes etc, have got to be the most simple things to do on DCOE's(Sidedraft Webers) ,no draining of the float bowls, reuse top gasket,etc,simple ,simple ,simple.

MBHD

Jalopy, the intake manifold in this link is roughly $325 USD + the shipping and duties. Tom already has an intake from another vendor lined up for the dyno testing with the Webers. There just isn't an inexpensive way to buy that stuff from Brazil, because the duties and shipping that someone has to pay to get it here in the US are going to have those costs factored into the resale price of the item when you buy it from them, plus whatever markup for profit they also add to it to stick you with.

Yep, they ream you to ship & import/export to the US & Brazil.

I bought my SPA turbo manifold for $120 US ,but we had a friend that would fly to the US & have it as carry on luggage.


MBHD

That sounds like the best deal you could ever ask for there. Knowing someone that is going there would be awesome to get a carry-on item like that on the plane.

I picked up a 292 exhaust manifold last year in Idaho. I went to a garage sale and for $2.00 got a old suitcase. Packed it in foam rubber and checked it as luggage and boarded plane. Picked up after flight with no problem. Days later opened suitcase to find they had opened and checked. There was a printed note inside telling me they had checked. I can just imagine this day and time if you carried that thing through the air port that it would throw those folks into a tizzy, especially being on a international flight !!

When they look or check the manifold,you just state,you are bringing it for repair. Same for cylinder heads etc.

Carry on on luggage not check in luggage.


MBHD

Was not trying to doubt what you were saying ...Just never thought about claiming what you had in hand. Now I remember a guy flying back from Alaska with his finger in a ice cooler.... coming back to the lower states to have it reattached.

Was not trying to doubt what you were saying ...Just never thought about claiming what you had in hand. Now I remember a guy flying back from Alaska with his finger in a ice cooler.... coming back to the lower states to have it reattached.

Last year my son flew from Texas to California with almost a full Harley front end, including the wheel, in pieces as a carry on. The only question was, "What is that?" We have carried a lot of parts on plains but don't ever try it with a tool. They don't like that. Beater

I am an A/C mechanic along w/co-workers that fly the airlines sometimes to go fix A/C ,they go through w/there carry on bags w/tools all the time.


MBHD

It's kind of an interesting situation. This is probably how everyone else feels when they need stuff from america.

Trying to get my brother who goes to Uraguay a few times a year to bring one back in his carry on luggage, Would like the complete engine from there.

Hank, it all depends on what tools, they get downright pissy about screwdrivers and gasket scrapers.

Of course if you can jumpseat on your own airline it helps, alot. I guess they figure if you already know where the crash axe is stowed the other implements aren't too critical.



Yeah, I sould love to be able to bring some of that kind of stuff from the countries I could get them from for a few projects I have. But then I'd have to be able to afford the part, the import duties, AND airfare. (dang)

Lets get back to the 250 Dyno info!

Here is a thought for the next 250 dyno.

Tom can use some intake port dividers for the 250 dyno session.

I noticed his statement about how good his intake port dividers makes more power w/no dyno proof.
Track proof is not reliable as was pointed out earlier. Tire pressures being different, temps of the day, alititude,standard degree day & so-on.You had an off day.

I have no doubt that w/his deviders installed ,the idle improved,better throttle response,why,? increased air velocity through the intake port.
Would probably get simular,(not as much) results by using the offy intake manifold instead of the Clifford he is currently using.

By deviding the intake port & making the intake port window so small,you could possibly see an increase in your low end power,but in the upstairs dept of higher RPM,it will make less power,the head can't breath w/that type of devider.

When you install intake port deviders it will severely cut the flow CFM wise to the intake ports,not just by a little ,,by a lot.

Now w/Tom posting w/the 194 cyl head is down flow about 20 or so CFM as compared to the open chamber head,thus making less power, would'nt you think this can be or could be a posible contradiction?

How can you can more power if you loose CFM flow of you cylinder head? His dyno session of the 194 cyl head proved it made less power everywhere, the 194 head was down in flow.


Turbo 6 has already proved this idea is false w/dynoing.

He had used intake port deviders as to make sure all the cylinders were getting close to the same amounts of fuel.

With the intake port deviders,his power was down on the dyno,so he had to up the boost pressure to make equivelent HP w/no deviders.

W/the deviders installed, the intake port window has become too small to flow good. It is a restriction.BIG TIME!

That being said,,when you are forcing air/fuel into a poorly designed intake port such as our siamesed ports,, design is not as affected/critical as in a N/A engine.

Tom,
dont take this personal,,just thinking about what other items you could add to the dyno session.

And as far as every car nut wants to be different,well some people like recipe combos. Such as getting info from Toms dyno session.
Proven parts for a no hassle install.

Some guys just would like to go to a store & purchase recipe/combo & not have to think about it.

So car nuts are all different,that's all.

MBHD

We have discussed doing it. And it would be interesting to see if there is anything to it. But also remember Hank, that you are thinking of putting a port divider into a stock sized port. And your right, you will reduce the port window significantly, and might not even get much gain above a certain point. If you go to Glen Self's website, you will see how a Comp Eliminator size port looks, and that divding a port that is that large, such as my friend Darren did, wont be the same as dividing a stock size port. A race intake port is over 1-5/8" tall by 2-5/8" wide, so opening up the port opening to compensate for the divider will have to be done, or your correct, you will probably have no benefit from dividing it. The whole lump port vs. the divided port is going to require a completely different approach one to the other, and trying to adapt or use previous thinking from a lump port perspective, and applying it to the divided port concept might not show any advantage when done that way. I don't think it is going to be as easy as just putting a divider in the stock size port, and voila, you have a giant increase. You are going to have to open up the port to obviously regain some port area that was lost from putting the divder in place to start with, so that is where the R&D starts.

Hank,
I will probably test divided ports with the 250, am working on that now.
Remember with my turbo 292 and dividers. They helped me because of the Multiport EFI, it was a scavenging problem between opposing cylinders not a flow problem.

The head, being worked up has much widened intake to manifold port and the height is also increased. Now just need to make a nice divider. Tom

Tom,
The deviders also helped w/Turbo 6's carbed engine,so it's not just a multi port thing..

Now that you have installed your deviders,you may have helped the scavenging problem you have now a flow problem now & it's limiting your potential HP & torque,AKA ,,flow problem. It's just not as apparent w/the turbo stuffing the air in your cylinders.

The only way the deviders work (by flowing OK)is when you make the intake port so huge, it's not practical for a street car. I have done this about 20 years ago.
Quote:"This is not what the average Guy will want to do for a street engine"

Goodluck on you quest!

MBHD

Scott -
I've been trying to get in touch with Darren Davis to talk about his work to the lump port head. The last number I had for him was at the header shop. Could you please give me an up-dated contact number?

Also, I did learn some interesting information from Sherman.

Thanks,
Bob

I don't think I have any current info on Darren either.

Is leelites sending one of his prepped 350 + CFM heads to Tom for dyno testing ?

Just thought I'd ask.


MBHD

Yep!

Great , I hope Tom will flow that head as well.

MBHD

I think Lee is doing it before he sends it. I think its cool he is wanting to participate, even though he isn't a member any longer.

Well ,at any rate ,the dyno test of his head will make or break him.

For his sake & rep, it better be outstanding.

We shall see.

My friend had already proved him wrong about the siamessed port & his views & thoughts.

Maybe, he can pull a rabbit out of a hat.

He still keeps bashing people on the BB,hes lucky Tom has a sense of humor or ? & would even consider using a cyl head from him.
He should be very thankfull for the upcomming opportunity to prove his theorys.
His cyl head better flow 330 + cfm as he tried to sell me one of his 350 + cfm heads through a private PM, but could not give me a price.

MBHD

You can tell by his recent auction, that he has toned his comments down quite a bit on there, and has even spoken to Larry recently as he mentioned. So, I think he has finally set aside his emotions and differences, and made peace with those he has had hard feelings with and moved on. And he seems to be comfortable with letting Tom test his head without feeling he will be biased against it one way or the other, and fairly evaluate it without prejudice. And is ready to accept the results whatever they might be.

Ebay has been deleteing his auctions & have been warning him about his auctions, he is forced to calm down, otherwise he cannot sell anything on Ebay.

Have not seen his recent auctions.

MBHD

I thought you might have seen it, and thats why you mentioned if he was giving Tom a cylinder head to test.

Lee did not say this head flows 350 cfm. But I believe he is supplying a flow test, or atleast I hope so.
Told him I would go thru the head to be sure parts are upto snuff, hate to see a loose keeper ruin the engine. He was ok with that. He is setting it up for the cams specs I gave him.

Maybe Larry or Hank could provide and worked up "194" head and show how they can be made to work. I would really like to see one work good.

Got a 3 weber(type) side draft carb setup coming. From 1/2 way around the world! How is that for support!

Thanks for all the contributions, just finished paying for the 292 dyno this weekend. The 250 will be more out of immediate pocket because of the shortblock build. It is for a good cause and glad I am able to offer up the service. Tom

Just curious how many hrs where used for the dyno session, Rate per hr?

I for one do not have any spare time to work on anything, let alone work up a cylinder head,,between work & kids & wife having different work schedule. It's nuts!

Right now ,I am baby sitting the whole day on my days off while the wife works.

The little one is throwing up all over the place,,,nuts, I tell you nuts.

MBHD

Delete.

Scott, your pal Tom asked me to remove them. So I did.
Tom does not like him & Tom does not call him for advise,which is a wise choice.

You should listen to both sides of the story before reacting.

Look @ what you buddy posts on ebay, he sure is the real deal.
A real work.

I think you owe me an appology.
He is giving you stuff in hopes to find someone that will listen to him. & you fell for it.

I believe Mike Kirby has stated you can believe in Leelites as much as you can trust Joe Deppe.
I'm done.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevy-Inl...sQ5fAccessories