Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected turbo 292 write up

Is there a way to get Image Shack to enlarge those pictures? I'm a photobucket user so I'm not very up on how 'IS' works.

Thanks.

nexrussian, try clicking on the image.

hank, the data log shows all the stuff you asked for.
a/f is yellow
spark the lower red
map (boost) upper red
rpm green

the vertical line represents the real time capture, the rest is a whole full throttle blast. tom

OK,I see it,just been so tired w/the kids & work.
Thanks

MBHD

Try holding the Ctrl button on keyboard & move your wheel on your mouse.

The colors are hard to see,clicking on the image does nothing.
@ least it does nothing on my comp.

MBHD

Thank you all, I tried all that and the only thing I have found to work (on this end) is to click on the image while the rest of the page is loading, then hit the "stop" button. If I let it load completely it gets smaller, and I can't read it.

FWIW Control & Scroll makes the page header "New to ImageShack? See More Images By This User" bigger and smaller, but has no effect on the size of the image in question (again, on this end, kinda wierd)

Thanks again for the help.

just settled down after getting back from the inliners convention. had a really nice time with a great bunch of guy's.

i did get to take it to a chassis dyno while in davenport. found out the timing could go higher.
also went to the dragstrip on fri evening and on sunday. i have alot more to tell you all.

there is a new best @ the track 13.8 @ 99mph. old best was 14.4@ 96mph. i go thru in drive and it shifts @ 4750 rpm.

any guess's on what the dyno says @ the tires?

Let us know your boost you were running & if you had race gas?

MBHD

I'll guess before you tell us. 320 HP & 400 FT lbs torque.

hank,
the boost is a around 9 psi @ 3200rpm and 12 psi @ the end of the pull. i did mix in 5 gallons of sunoco 110 to 10 gallons 91 pump gas. tom

I would think you are about 320-350 HP range & 400-450 ft lbs torque?
Torque will go up quite a bit w/more boost.
My 4.3 V-6 made 550 ft lbs of torque @ 3000 RPM @ 21 PSI.
So,,,,,,,what are your HP & torque numbers?
Also how much total timeing did you go up to?

MBHD

well, got some more news. took it to a chassis dyno (dynomite brand) i believe it was a eddy current unit.



1st run 235 hp @ 4550 rpm torq was above 300 from 2700-4700 rpm. max tq was 320
2nd run 243 hp with 1 more degree of timing 26 total
3 rd run 240hp @ 27 degrees timing.




took it to the track and hit a alltime new fast time . i am now solidly into the 13's with a 13.8 @ 99.95 mph. i need to work more on launch technique for sure.



this is done with a 1650 stall converter and in drive, i let the trans do the shifting @ 4750 rpm. the stall needs to go higher as the car tries to push while at the line and giving it gas. not bad for a 6 and a street car that cruises 2500rpm @ 80 mph getting 18 mpg @ same speed.
while on dyno, i shook the torq converter bolts loose. tightened them and it was ok. on sunday they shook loose again and damaged the flywheel and torq converter. i will be getting a converter with alittle more stall now.

sometime later this summer i am going to pull out the intake bolt in lumps. i will also leave in port dividers as this makes the engine more reponsive. hopefully the increase of the intake port section area with boost will increase power. we will see. tom

tom I thought i read on another site you had 400hp on that motor? and your only showing 240 at the rear wheels? Thats a pretty big lose if that is the case. but nice to see your into the 13s now. i still think you need to widen that port with that divder in there,instead of removing the lump.But that is your call.& just my 2cents

I was 77 HP & 80 ft lbs off, Damm, was I off LOL.
I have been trying to tell you in the past you need a looser converter, but @ least now you are going to get one. :-)

I would look into a stall of 2100-2400 w/a lock-up type converter.
http://www.tcsperformance.com/ makes a 9/11 converter & I believe Rusty can make you whatever stall you want.

If you want something more responsive I would leave the lumps in & switch to a Offy intake manifold,,, I know,I know more stuff to weld & so on but,just something to think about.

I am not sure if you have tried both 4 bbl manifolds,but there is a huge difference in throttle response,the Offy being the more responsive one.
With the Clifford,it has always been a manifold that is sluggish on power down low.

With your car being a low RPM street vehicle,low stall torque converter I would think IMO the Offy would be a better choice.

The runners on the Clifford are huge too big for a low RPM street engine :-)


MBHD

what happens if you right-click on the image and select 'view image?'

Tom,

Have you considered building 3 straight runners into a common plenum? The air has to bend 90 deg twice to get into your existing manifold.. there is a good chance of a flow restriction.

M

Tlowe,,,Tom ,
hello,,,,,,,,
me & a friend were looking @ your graph on the HP , A/F , Tq
and we noticed as your A/F ratio gets richer 3700 RPM & your HP is following the A/F ratio.
It looks like it might be getting too rich ,,or your are running out of air.

I would think the 62-1 has enough air to feed your engine, so maybe the intake windows might be too small w/your deviders you installed?

Basically , wondering if you tried to lean it out when running on the dyno?

Your HP should be much higher I would think, & torque.
It seems a tad rich,but maybe you tried to lean it out allready?

Also, on your timeing chart where is 0 vacuum,80 or 90 on the map sensor?
Full boost is 180 on the map
9 in full vacuum?
If so it looks like your timeing w/no boost ,full vacuum, 2000 RPM looks like a default settings?
I would think you need more timeing @ full vacuum or part throttle cruise, it is showing only 24 degrees total timeing under full vacuum, or am I reading this incorrectly?

MBHD

efi
i have given thought to all the angles the air has to travel before seeing a piston. the entire intake track would need to be rehashed. i am not against it, it is not what i want right now with driving time at hand. maybe this long cold winter when i have more time.


hank,
i started to lean it out on the dyno. the 2nd and third runs leaned up the top end after 4K rpm. i was going to do more when the convertor bolts decided not to play nice.

as far as the spark timing thing. here goes my explanation:
180 is full boost (appro 12 psi)
92 is engine shut off (no vacum)
9 is full vacum
while at cruise rpm or even at idle my engine never sees more than 15 inchs of vacum. @ cruise it is more like 10 in.
which equates to a map reading of 36- 45 on the chart.

i have given thought to opening the head to intake port area. here is what i am going to do.

first fix the convertor and flywheel.

second, pull intake and open the intake/head port as wide and tall as it will go. presently it is the size of the gasket. i will also open up the gasket.

i think with the opening it will allow more airflow, thus more torq will be generated.

i was never surprised by my hp #'s on the dyno. hp is a calculation derived from torq and rpm. hp will never be higher than tq before 5250 rpm on any engine because of the calculation. my dynoing quit at 4800 rpm. i do expect to get the tq # higher without jumping the boost higher. i just have to keep on tuning it.

tlowe,
I forgot when you had boost controll issues, what finally cured that?
A larger turbine housing,milling the devider on the SPA manifold?

What is the cam specs you are using?

Have you had any detonation?

What converter stall are you looking at?

The only engine I can somewhat compare to as far as turbocharged is dynoing my 4.3 V-6 Chevy.

The turbo was smaller than yours,the heads flow worse than the stock chevy inline head.
Cam is about 175 degrees degrees duration @ .050 & .370 lift or there abouts, really weak.

Stock, they made 280 HP @ the engine & 360 ft lbs of torque,w/14 PSI of boost pressure.

I had done a chip,catback exhaust,little tweaks to the turbo,K&N cold air kit,Aquamist alky injection. Total timeing is about 22-24 degree total.

As stated before I made 386 HP @ 4500 RPM & 550 ft lbs torque @ 3000 RPM I also was running 21 PSI of boost pressure.

This figure was using the dynopack dyno, the one that bolts directly to your wheel hubs.

My A/F ratio was 13 or there abouts, (a little lean)

MBHD

i am now running a turbonetics 62-1 P trim .82 housing. with that turbo and the timing up higher the boost does not creep as much. my manifold has always been milled.
looking at getting a 2K rpm converter. that is high enough for me.

i would have to disagree about the 4.3 head flowing worse than a siamesed ported inline. our worse thing going against us is the siamesed port.
with that said you had real good #'s coming from your engine.

consider this. my motor is now putting down easily 2 times what a stock 292 would do with better fuel mileage and still has docile street manners (when you can keep your foot out of it). tom

I thought we discussed earlier that your wastegate was only seeing pressure from 3 cylinders because your manifold was devided & I told your to mill the devider down so your wastgate would see pressure from all 6 cylinders? Yes, no?

As far as only a 2000 RPM converter,,,,,where does your engine start to build boost pressure?
2000 RPM is pretty low. If it is a lock-up type,you still will get same mileage when it is locked-up.

MBHD

hank, i think my boost is under pretty good control now. i have 9 lbs at 2700 rpm and 12 at 4800 rpm. i would have to look at a log to see the very lowest rpm it comes in.

i am not going to put a tq converter with higher than 2k stall. it will just build excess heat when the lockup is not used. i am fine with the performance that it will give me. maybe if i were to build a non O/D drag car then a big stall would be fine for me.

my manifold is slightly milled for the divider. the ones i had been selling had a larger milled divider. the batch of manifolds i have now has no milling. the boost control has more to do with proper turbo exhaust wheel and housing selection than the divider. tom

Tom,
I do know about turbine wheel size & housing size has a lot to do with boost control,that is why when you told me you had a .63 turbine housing I said to you that is way too small.

I was wondering IIRC,,,,your turbo manifold was devided & I suggested to mill the manifold devider & was wondering if you had milled it then tried it if it made any difference?

Or did you just install the larger turbine housing,or both?

All the SPA manifolds were devided like mine is & Douglas told me that is the way they come from them.
He talked w/SPA & they told Douglas,that milling the devider did not make any difference because they had no boost control issues with the wastegate only seeing 3 cylinders.

The only comparasion I can talk about is from my Syclone.
The factory put in a 2100 RPM stall converter.

For best performance it would have been better if it was a 2400 RPM,or there abouts.

The stock trannys(700R4) do not run hot at all w/a 2100 converter. It really dives like a standard low rpm torque converter. Just by driveing my Syclone around normal, you would thick the stall is around 1400-1600 RPM

The only time I get 2100 RPM is if I stomp on the brakes hard,give it a bit of throttle & watch the boost build up to 4 psi,from that point it will just stay @ 2100 rpm even if I go to 15 psi of boost pressure w/the brakes applied.

I know if my Syclone had a 2400 rpm converter I would be running 11's.

I just stay w/the stock one, just to see how fast I can go w/it.

I was wondering what size rear wheel cylinders you have?
One of the first upgrades I did to my Syclone is install 7/8's rear wheel cylinders.

Being all stock I could only get about 3-4 PSI of boost pressure,then it would push through the brakes.

After I installed the 7/8" rear wheel cylinders I can hold 15-20 psi of boost pressure,huge improvement!!

Hope you get it to a track soon w/your looser converter,it will make a big difference.

Goodluck w/it & your tunning.

MBHD
_________________________
69 Camaro 250 EFI, turbo,12 port aluminum head.

hank ,
i am running 4 wheel disc brakes
12" in front and 10.5 in rear. the car stops great as is.

one problem a person could have with too big of rear stopping force is the rear would break loose in a panic stop and cause a uncontrolled skid.
i have mine proportioned to not cause this. hope to soon get to fix the Elco and get it back on the road. never have enough time for everything. tom

Tom,
That might be part of the problem why you cannot hold your brakes on the line.?
You have disc's in the rear,less pad material grabbing the disc as compared to drums.

Maybe when you go to the track next you can proportion more pressure to the rear so they will hold better & allow you to build more boost,or just install a hydraboost brake setup?
But you would need a hyd pump.

The Syclone has ABS,no uncontrolled panic stops.

Talk about no time to work on your own projects,,,,my 2.5 & 1.5 year old boys are my projects.

MBHD

i do have the adjustable valve, maybe i'll try biasing more to the rear.
today i am cleaning the shop. 1 years worth of projects completed and the remains laying everywhere. can't do it in a day. and have my neighbors dead car in my way. tom

One other thing still needed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sticky tires :-)


MBHD

got them coming! 27-8-15 goodyears.

YES!!!!!

MBHD

Hey Tom, I'll help you get rid of some of those goodies your trippin' over.................... We can load 'em in my car and I'll take them away.

can I, huh, can I?

xea
maybe next time you will need to drive a car with a bigger trunk. that one would fill up pretty quick.

p.s. my new tires are here. get them mounted soon. now if only the car was fixed. tom

Do you need help when you pull it apart? Let me know, and I can be there. I downloaded the instructions for the Holley 950 yesterday and have enjoyed reading it.

I've got a Blazer and a 12' long trailer..........

What was the original trim of your turbo? I always thought building boost as quickly as possible is a good thing. Where did you get your BOV?

Tom... just looking at your early posts and pics... were did you get that turbo exhaust manifold?

i bought mine from innovative turbo in arizona. now i sell them at a much lower price than i purchased mine for. if anyone is interested in one, they are listed in the classifieds at the left of screen and i have them on ebay now and again.
the manifold itself is made in brazil by SPA Turbo. they specifically machine mine to my specs now. tom

I picked one up last week and its gorgeous :). I was quite impressed with the things I saw.

Where did you get it?

Got any pics?

MBHD

I live close enough to Tom to drive over. I purchased it from him and got to see his Elky (and some other really cool stuff). No pictures yet, I'm starting from scratch.

ok guy's, time for another update.

i don't know why i waited so long to put in a higher stall! man the car takes off like a different engine is in there. 1st gear is gone in a instant and burning thru 2nd. the engine is much more responsive now. the converter is a 2025 stall as written on the box. and oh boy does it work. some neighbors were on their porch enjoying the calm evening and then i show up in front of the house and do a stalled take off. i bet they think i've lost it. you can't wipe the grin off my face. tom

Tom, I can't find your ad in the classifieds???????

here is the ad again. tom

http://www.inliners.org/cgi-bin/classifi...query=retrieval

you know what Im thinking right?

time for a new video.

i'll do another video for sure. how about one from you? tom