Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected supercharged 250 chev

Thought y'all would be interested in seeing what I added to the L6 in my street rod this winter. The performance gain is awesome!
The blower is off of a Pontiac Bonneville GTP 3800 V6. The drive ratio is at 2.33 to limit the boost to about 7PSI for longevity's sake. Carb is Edelbrock 600.
Pappy

Copy & paste this link:

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/563344493EAYzFQ?vhost=good-times

Thats cool as hell.

Any chance theres a video somewhere?

Im guessing the answer is no but Ill ask anyway, do the back cylinder run lean(er) than the front?

jlgrooms
I have one of them blowers Nice piece of work there.:)

Very nice

Pappy:

That's great! Gives me plenty of inspiration

Thanks for posting those.

Paul..aka Xerxes

Looks slick.

I have never heard of running the M-62 (or is it an M-90?) Eaton wet like that (draw through). is there anything you have to do to the blower for that (different seals somewhere maybe)?

Do you plan to hook up the bypass valve?

What did you use to form the bends in the sheetmetal for the intake?


The entire engine compartment looks well thought out, I know it's OT to this thread, but did you make your hood hinge?

Hey Guys:
Thanks for all the compliments.
I'll try to answer all the questions here.

I have one video of me running it thru 1/8 mile 2 years ago (before the blower). If you want to see that, let me know and I'll try to figure out how to post it.

The rear cylinders running lean was a concern from the git-go. To minimize this was I made the plenum relatively large (2" x 4"), knowing that this would risk having the flow too low to be responsive at tooling speeds. She has been about 2000 miles now (some hard!). I have done a plug check twice after hard driving, and they all look equal. I am intending to to a temp check across the headers, but have not yet. And, aside from being a little cold-collared for the first 5 min, the responsiveness at low RPM is awesome!

The blower is an Eaton M-90. I did quite a bit of reading on them, and some of the earlier versions may not be suitable for draw-through. They had some kind of coating on the rotors that might dissolve. This is an '01 model, and it may disintegrate tomorrow, but in 2000 miles, no problem.

I fabricated all the aluminum stuff in the photos, including the hood hinges. (AutoCad was used extensively).

The curves in the 1/4" aluminum plate were formed with a home-made bender. It's just two 1" rollers mounted about 4" apart in a little frame, and a piece of 3" round stock. Place the aluminum over the rollers with the 3" on top and press with a bearing press. (or a big hammer would probably work, too) The sharp bends were done on a press brake, but I learned the hard way to heat the aluminum with a torch FIRST! Warming it a little also helps in bending the 3" curves.

I learned quite a few other things on this project the hard way, if I can help you in any way, let me know.

Pappy

I'd be happy to have a copy of it to put up on my web site with the rest of the videos i have.Great job on it

Thanks again.
Nexxussian, I see i missed answering one question.
The bypass valve is connected, and that probably adds a lot to the driveability.
Pappy

Ummm...hell yeah man...post it!! Are you sure you dont wanna make a new video with the blower, maybe a quick 360 view of the car, followed by a thumbs up and tire smoke?

A user friendly way to post/upload videos and free, is http://www.photobucket.com, you can also use youtube if you want the world to see it.

i bet the 250 really gets going in that light chassis!
any mods done in the motor? your whole car has a very nice clean look to it. nice detail on the motor.
i'd like to see a new video also. tom

Pappy:

Did you get the blower from a local wrecking yard, or ebay...rebuilt? or was it new? I'm curious about possibly getting one from a wrecking yard. One always hopes to find a serviceable piece...

Thanks:

Paul..aka Xerxes

Tom & Paul:
The motor is basically stock, bored 30 over, hypereutectic pistons, stock compression, stainless valves, Comp Cam w/ 265 duration + 1/2" lift is all I can remember without looking it up.

The blower came from a local wrecking yard ($200), supposedly had 60k miles on it. The rotors had no apparent wear. I took the front snout off, mainly to change the pulley size, so I changed oil in the gearcase at that time. So it has not been rebuilt.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

jlgrooms

If you need any help getting your video online, just shoot me an PM. If you can get it on your desktop, we can get it online. Worse case scenario, just email it to me, Ill host it.

Pappy,

Very nice work on the engine.
Where did you get the hypereutectic pistons for the 250?

"The motor is basically stock, bored 30 over, hypereutectic pistons, stock compression, stainless valves, Comp Cam w/ 265 duration + 1/2" lift is all I can remember without looking it up."

pappy, i have a few more questions for you.
do you take out timing when the boost comes in? if so how are you doing it. tom

Howdy all,
Sorry for the delay getting back to you, just got back from 700 mile trip to the Mid America Street Rod Nationals. The little 6 ran cool & flawlessly (22 mpg), only problem being trying to keep her under 70 mph!

Winter: I farmed the engine rebuild out to a local engine machine shop, and he tells me the hypereutectic pistons came from Federal Mogul in Memphis.

Tom: I ran about 35 degrees total advance before the supercharger, and all I have done so far is back it off to 30 degrees. There has been no indication of detonation, and I am still experimenting. Bear in mind this is just a street application with an old codger driving, she rarely sees 3500 rpm.

As for the videos that I have, one is 19 meg and one is 16 meg, am having trouble e-mailing files that big.

download the video's to youtube.
awesome to hear you drove it that far and had no problems. pat on the back to you. tom

That's great!

Any idea how much HP your setup is making?

63:
I don't have access to dyno, but my wild guess is around 250 hp.
pappy

For Boost Retard, I have a MSD 'Boost Timing Master' (in the box on the shelf). It's just a timing retard box, with a control knob that lets you select how many degrees to retard per PSI of boost It's the cheapest I have found amongst the name brands.

I got mine from that auction site.

The PN I'm coming up with, off the MSD website, that matches the specs of my BTM (from memory, who am I again??) is the PN 5462.

This one ends in 2 1/2 hrs, less than I paid for mine (no idea on the seller though). (#220237660856 if the link doesn't work)

Neat! Just an FYI. I had the a 97 GTP, the first one sold in the state. Great car. Ran like a scalded dog but would get over 30mpg if you kept your foot out of the boost guage.

Sad ending though. At about 40 K miles it started making a knocking sound. Dealer couldn't find anything. At about 60 it was getting loud enough I took it back and after a while they said:

"Oh, your supercharger oil is low. You should have checked that. It will be $4000 to replace the supercharger..."

The moral of this saga is to watch the oil level. Btw, the oil is only available from the dealer, it's expensive, and it STINKS!

OK Guys:
Last time I wrote, i said i was still experimenting with the timing, & here's what i have done: (I'm a blacksmith, not a tuner, so i need help!)

I'm running an HEI with 18 degrees initial, 30 degrees with the vacuum connected, which gives a pretty good idle. I modified the weights for a total centrifugal of 10 degrees at 2800 RPM. But here's the Biggie: I connected the vacuum advance to the boost side of the manifold.

Remember, the bypass valve is being used, and boost is limited to 7 PSI with the pulley. At 2000 RPM in 5th on a level road it still shows 8 to 10 inches of vacuum on the boost side. This gives about 35 degrees total timing, including centrifugal. When i push on it, the boost drops out 10 degrees of vacuum advance, giving about 25 degrees total, up to 28 degrees at RPM above 2800.

This seems to be working great.
Has anybody else out there tried this?
Will the vacuum diaphragm stand 7 PSI of boost for long before it ruptures?
I still have never heard any sign of detonation. Will it be obvious, like those V8 thingies pinging? I know long term pinging is destructive to an engine, but will this cause damage instantly at 7 PSI boost? I know this is long & wordy & I hope it all makes sense.

This old fool looks forward to hearing your tips & advice.
Thanks alot!
Pappy

I don't know about hearing it with a turbo. But i can tell you
my 250 with over 13-1 on 87 Never made a sound, But I can tell
you it would fire up with a Bump of the key But you couldn't turn
it off without loading the clutch. And NEVER burnt a valve Or
anything and No marks in the pistons or valves. and it got 16
mpgs in the city.

For your application you can buy an MSD boost timeing retard box.
Tlowe has one of these & he likes it.

I recommend one of these, http://www.jandssafeguard.com/ much safer to use.
You install a knock sensor on your engine & it can retard all your cylinders timeing @ once,or individually for more power output.

With detonation,, you cannot always hear it.
Just pull you plugs once after you get on it hard & is all warmed up & look for small aluminum deposites sticking to the plugs,if you see these deposites that is most likely detonation happening.

The J&S unit is a bit pricey ,but IMO it is money well spent I use one on my Syclone turbocharged truck. It does have a factory knock retard system ,,but the J&S is much faster acting & the factory pulls timeing out from all the cylinders @ once.

I think it is a manditory thing to have when you are turbo or supercharged. It will save your engine.
I also highly recommend installing one of these systems,,
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/ Methanol is about 116 octane
I believe these are the cheapest (price wise) out there for an adjustable/progressive system.


Two cents thrown :-)

MBHD

[quote=Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]For your application you can buy an MSD boost timeing retard box.
Tlowe has one of these & he likes it.

hank, my timing is all controled with the holley C950. not with a msd boost timing retard box.

jlgrooms,

i use 25 degrees total timing under boost. my boost is up to 12 psi. your timing arrangement is setup pretty good. you have to remember our heads chamber is a very inefficient design and likes alot of timing normally. with boost the timing will need to go down, you are correct. @ 28 degrees and 7 psi i think you are ok to run.
i have made a special vacum can that is setup for a HEI and a boosted setup. it will add 20 degrees timing with vacum and pull out 10 degrees with boost. so it has a total 30 degrees movement.

keep in mind @ highway speeds (low load, medium rpm) the engine likes around 45-50 degrees timing. the vacum can take car of this.
i can set you up with one of these cans if you want one. just pm me.
your caan will handle the boost just fine (not rupture). the force apllied with vacum is just as high if not more.
that 7 psi adds alittle zip to the engine doesn't it? tom

Tlowe,
I thought you had the MSD box? I must be thinking about someone else.

MBHD

Well Guys, I don't mean to brag....
YES I DO TOO, this is a victory for all us inliners:
Pappy's little blue supercharged inline 6 roadster was the autocross champion at the GoodGuys Nationals at Nashville this past weekend! I shore am proud of the ole girl! You should'a heard the announcer shaming the big ole V-thingie boys about it!!!

Pictures & maybe video coming soon.

Thanks to all YOU GUYS and your advice over the past few years for helping make this possible.

Pappy

Video, yes please.

Gotta bask in the fame (infamy? ) when the V town kids get beat by someone that 'walks the line' (inline that is ).

Say, that's pretty a catchy phrase there.
Reckon we could talk you into running for pres.?
Pappy

If you mean me, I won't quite be old enough by October, and I have a hell of a time saying things like Recordify and Decidimacate with a straight face.

Hey Guys:
I finally got videos posted. And pictures of the GoodGuys Nashville Autocross. Use this link, and go to page 7.

http://rides.webshots.com/album/551417709MbbrwV?vhost=rides

The Cars for Kids videos are pre-supercharger days.

The close-up stills on the autox track were sent to me from a Horsepower TV photographer.

The "cars" video was taken by a friend with one of them fancy cell phones.

Pappy

Pappy:

Those pics are great...Looks like you had the fun-o-meter pegged!

As they say here in Charlotte. "Seems to be pushin".Probably aero push, eh?...:)

Thanks for the pics..Very cool

Paul...aka Xerxes

Nice Vid, looks like fun.

NEAT Pappy, I wish I had remembered Goodguys this weekend. I'd have come up on Saturday. I'm about 2 hours due south.

anyone else get the last "cars" video to work?

Xerxes:
She was pushin a little till i discovered runnin in low gear all the way thru gave lots better control thru the turns. (The old inliner sure did'nt like the 4000rpm, the lifters were raising cain after each pass.) In photo autox 085, we had just made a left turn around the cone in the foreground. She's still drifting, lining up for the long sweeper to the right coming in to the finish line (see video). And you are right, the fun-o-meter was pegged. And it still is, the little blue inliner just keeps getting "famouser", check out Air-Rides writeup & photos at http://www.ridetech.com/more/category/events/
have a good day!
pappy

Maybe i should clarify:
It was 4000rpm with all the oil up on the sides of the block, rather than in the pan that she didn't like.
pap