Inliners International Forums General Discussion Bench racing Ethanol, E85 for fuel ???

I guess I misunderstood the description of this forum:
"Bench racing
This is an open forum. Talk about anything you want or lie about anything you want!" I thought this was the place.
Sure, 6inarow, I think we're on the same page, but the decisions we make in our corner affect every other corner. That's not politics, it's about human decency and compassion, or at least taking responsibility for the mess we're making of the world.

Hydrogene is much to danerous to use in a motor vehicle on the highway. The HHO device which converts water into a burnable gas is promising & we will see more on this later.

Ethanol (non fossel fuel) is much cleaner and will be self restoring for us here in America.

As we lead the way in clean energy production, others will follow and the need for non returnable fossil fuel products will diminsh.

Now doesn't this help the world 'as a whole'??

tyb507, My daily driver is 40 years old. My second truck is also 40 years old. A bicycle has been my sole transportation for 8 years of my life.

Are the figures you gave for cost of ethanol as old as your agenda. Do you know what the cost of production for the newer ethanol plants is? Did you consider that ethanol is more environmentally friendly than gasoline. Is there a distribution system in place for Hydrogen. Did you bother to read any of the previous thread, or follow any of the links on the topic.

This bulletin board is provided by a club devoted to Inline motors and this particular forum is "Bench Racing". I respect Big Bill for coming back at me with his concern about ethanol having been research enough to use as a fuel. Unfortunately I may have used too many words to say that powers in charge of the "bigger picture" have already decided that despite the production cost there is money to be made. Since ethanol is in the future and has an octane of 117, how best to use it as a fuel. If all you can contribute to the topic is your personal agenda, I suggest you start your own blog for more affect.

Larry

Hello Folks,
As we play with alcohol based fuels I would like to say one thing: If you have never been around a race track when a person covered with alcohol caught fire, I hope you never have to see it. A man screaming in pain as his clothes melt with no visible flame. BE CAREFUL IT DOESN'T EXPLODE BUT IT BURNS. IF YOU SUCCESSFULLY USE AN EXTINGISHER ON IT YOU HAVE TO GUESS WHERE THE BASE OF THE FLAME IS, IF YOU ARE IN BRIGHT SUNLIGHT YOU WON'T SEE FLAME TILL YOU OR YOUR BUILDING START TO BURN.
Not trying to be a Drag just concerned,
Big Bill

Big Bill, I've had the same thoughts. I had to work a full day today, so I wasn't able to stop by the local oil company or order the pistons. I going to the oil company to ask about the burning E85, current cost, order quanity, and storing. I have assumed that with 15% gas that it would be visible to some extent. I haven't seen warnings in the links I have visited about E85 and a fire. The dragster I was associated with ran on methanol and used a Halon extinguisher system. Might be a wise replacement for the conventional extinguisher I have in the cab now. I just checked that web site and 2.5 lb. is about $70, that's cheap insurance.
Good thought.

Larry

Dear Bill;

Yes; Alcohol can burn things, but It's much easier to control. This is why it is used in the Motion Picture industry for 'fire F/X.' Others (kerosene-propane)are too, but never gasoline because It's 'uncontrolable' for that purpose.

E-85 is a mix & probably will be visable in a vehicle fire. However a 5# (ABC) extingusher is the minimum for motor vehicle protection.

Now; some new thoughts..

Chevrolet Sales Div. has started TV ads on E-85/their new trucks. These show corn as the base with a 40s era Chevy. truck (driving along) in the background.

Anyone know how long it takes to grow a 6-8' high corn stalk??

World famous Jersey Sweet Corn,about 6 weeks in South Jersey.We'll be pickin' before July 4th, traditionally the start of corn eaten'!Geez, I hope they don't waste sweet corn on fuel.

Dear Drew;

I'm sure It's a "special breed" just for the E-85. Perhaps one that grows faster/larger.

The American farmer grew enough to feed all the GIs, POWs and population during WWII.

Watch him 'go for it' now.

PS: Corn will grow here if it does in Jersy. Our temp is +20 to +105 but dry. They grew onions in WWII here.

tyb507. I thought about it for a couple days and you are right - this is the forum to air these views. My apology for overstepping my bounds,

Flash fire,thats something I didn't think about.

Can someone with access to E85 do a experiment for us? Burn some in a coffee can to see if you can see a flame?

Larry, it will be interesting to hear what the oil company has to say.
When you get the pistons can you post a picture of one?

vince

D*m forgot to stop by the oil company. I did get the pistons ordered. The shop ordered them direct from Federal.

I'll take pictures. I will also have to figure out how to CC the top of the piston to see what that does to my compression figures. If it is a dome a radius I can caculate. If it is popup (aka dome) I will have to put a dam around the outside of the piston fill it and put the dam on a flat surface fill it and find the difference, unless some one has a better idea.

Larry

L;

I still can't get an answer on that part# from NAPA localy & this is really odd.

How close is it (a piston) to a SBC one?? Does the location of the wrist pin make it unique??

Nuts!

The pistons are very similar to a SBC. The 305 piston can be used in the 250, but because of the wrist pin location CAN'T be used in the 292. There was a real good dicussion sometime ago on the subject.

When I get the pistons I'm going to check the compression height against one of the old pistons. I'm thinking it may not be standard.

Larry

The 292 got "de-tuned" somehow along the way.

It was good stock. With the added compression, CID & Larry's lump ports it will be a real workhorse.

So why does LPG require higher compression over gas?
I've seen and talked to a few people over the years that have ran LPG on trucks and don't recall them saying they had to change pistons. In fact if I remember right they could run gas or LPG. One guy I talked to said he ran LPG until he got to the mountains then switched to gas for more power.

Larry, are you going to run a Carb or EFI on this motor? I'm thinking EFI might be the way to go,after all your building this motor for modern fuel it might as well have a modern fuel delivery system. Old school meets new school. Just a thought.

vince

Dear Vince;

It doesn't.

This may have been a (piston MFG) way to avoid EPA rules and probably how it got "de-tuned" in the first place.

This happened to one of the 351" Ford V-8s too. It dropped it from 225 Hp. to 165 in the 70s.

Remember the 60s, a stock 327 2bbl was 220Hp.

This (Gov. interference)helped make 'imports' look attractive when the Arab embargo occured too.

My Dad ran LPG in his Trans Van that had a Dodge 360 in it. He would switch between gas and LPG. Same as your buddy, LPG on flat land and gasoline in the hills.

I've thought about EFI. There are too many other projects right now.

Larry

Gentlemen;

Have you noticed the oil industry's play on "bio-fuels"??

Their running ads on DirecTV using the logo Bp trying to make it look "they" are part of it and interested in "alternate" energy sources too.

The plot 'thickens'.

John, Here's a different perspective, and will certianly get some dander up. I won't say that this article is unbiased or without credence, to ignore it would be foolish.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m23728&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Larry

It's all going to be; "quite a chess match", isn't it??

One of the key components here will be the China/Russia 'alliance'. :rolleyes:

John, that EPA thing makes sense.
Ya, I seen that ad on comcast cable and thought it was kinda funny seeing the BP sign in the back round.

Larry,I hear you on the "too many projects" thing.
Where the heck did you find that website? Very interesting.


vince

Gentleman

Gentleman
Sorry about empty post not sure what happened.
A couple of years back everyone was talking about compressed natural gas which was supposed to be around 140 octane and safe because if the tank got ruptured it went straight up instead of spreading along the ground. There was a few systems around that allowed you to fill up at home suposedly, then it just dropped out of the "NEWS". Has anything ever progressed with that?
Big Bill

I did manage to get by the oil company. btw it's Paul Oil Company I spoke with Mark Paul, and didn't get a lot of information, he's not very talkative. He said that they could mix it in what ever container I brought. I asked about storing it and his reply was it absorbs moisture out of the air, so you don't want to store it too long. As to price that could change from day to day.

Vince The web site was one of the hits when I googled Paul oil company.

John, Yes it will be something to keep an eye on. Yhe China/Russian alliance didn't fair well during the cold war, haven't heard much since till now.

Larry

Thoughts
Compression ratio can be low on any fuel that is ignited by spark, but as we raise the CR the engine becomes more able to get the most power from a given amount of fuel, to a point. So higher octane sounds like a way to go but many have discovered that air plane fuels which carry a higher octane rating don't perform as well as one would think because they are designed to run there best at higher altitudes.
As for the farmers be able to produce like they did during WW 2, if you check the number of farmers and the amount of farm ground available today compared to 60 years ago you will discover a much smaller number. Then if we start to produce a cheaper form of fuel that is cleaner to burn the rest of the world will want it also. At that point the demand goes up and the price will follow. This will affect not only the fuel cost we face, it will change the cost of food. If you think about it corn is fed to Beef, hogs, & poultry. Also we make many many products from corn syrup. Now as we ask the farmer to work harder and produce more corn. He most likely will expect to make a higher profit in order to purchase the additional equipment, seed, fertilizer, herbicides, and other things required. Now if he is spending more he should expect a much higher bottom line so the cost of fuel and food goes higher. Then we have to consider the bad growing seaaon when he invested all that time and money and his crops either died due to too much or not enough rain and he had no harvest.
I still think alternate fuel sources are a great idea but we need to look at the over all picture before we leap off the bridge. The "QUOTE MASTER PLAN MAY BE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THAN WE THINK." Maybe instead of thanking or blaming politians, we might consider looking at big bussiness they are not in any thing for fun. If this becomes a workable thing the oil companies will still distribute it and control the price so as to keep their profits up.
In closing the best and only reason for an alternative fuel source is a cleaner safer world to pass on to future generations.
Big Bill

Dear Bill;

Hasn't the Gov. been paying them 'not to grow' for years in the form of "price subsides" keeping grain/food out of the world marketplace??

Don't under estimate these people! With the equipment of today they can produce more product with less land. The 'left over' portions (corn) will feed their animals, making it even more attractive.

Here in the California (high desert) the land remains unused since WWII where the onions were grown. Their's other lands (USA) where it can/will be done too.

Anything that aids our ecconmy today will also be helping the 'next generation' for future years.

Now; They'll be able to grow all they want, bringing $ back to our society which is long overdue.

John I most certainly hope you are right but I live in farm country. I have watched years when prices went sky high because it was a bad year and the crops failed. Then I have seen banner years when the yeild was great for everyone and the price fell to nothing. When was the last time you priced the equipment you are talking about, Like a 36 row corn planter or a no till system of twenty four rows or more, or even a three hundred horse tractor. Total the cost, the interest on the loans, the fuel, the chemicals, and seed. Then the question becomes what will the final price be when it is all over, and what will happen when we have the weather extremes that wipe out the crops for a year. An example of what I am talking about is a system to convert chicken dung into fertilizer. It provided a very cheap lawn fertilizer from a by product that was causing a problem with its disposal. Then the demand picked up for the fertilizer and the chicken farms wasn't suppling enough by product and the price went through the roof for the fertilizer. I am not arguing against E-85. I am just asking has anyone done the math? If it becomes the primary fuel for the world what would be the availability and the price. Also if we burn our corn in our car and our soy beans in our diesel trucks, will it affect our prices in the grocery store. How many gallons of gasoline are used every year just in this country? Also how many in the world. Now how many acres of corn would it take to produce that amount of E-85? Maybe this is a plan by John Deere to increase their sales. I think that solar and other systems need to be researched until they get it right. It has came a long way but it still has a long way to go. As for the onion fields if the are suitable for Corn and soy beans which need to be alternated to keep the soil productive. why have they not been farmed since WWII? I think that onions will grow in ground that other crops won't but I'm not certain about that. All of this is just my thoughts as I have not conducted any research or can I find any properly documented research on any of this. I just don't want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire. Also does anyone know why even though I am logged in I can't preview my post.
Big Bill

Big Bill, I think your concerns are justified, but E85 is not going to replace gasoline. E85 is an alternative fuel it will be another choice at the gas station. I don't think you will see it at most of the major oil company gas stations either. The economics aren't there for E85 to replace gasoline. From what was posted here E85 is selling for about 20% less than gasoline in the midwest. When a consumer with one of the new "Flex Fuel" vehicles fills up and then finds that he has lost 20% or better in mileage. The next time he fills up he will think twice about E85. The reason I started this thread because I have to rebuild a 292 for one of my trucks. If I build a motor for E85, it probably won't run on gas very well unless I run premium. On the other side I'll only lose about half the mileage with E85. E85 is not even available in California yet. A local oil company will mix it for me with out hesitation. By all indications corporate america is ramping up to make E85 widely available. Again E85 will only replace gasoline to the extent that the consumers feels he/she is getting value for their money. Now if there is an oil shortage and world events seem to make that a probability. Ethanol producers will be sitting pretty because they will be able to charge what ever the market will bear. Corporate incentive(?). Now if the demand for ethanol is so high that it cuts into food production or if not enough ethanol can be produced and there is an oil shortage. Who's fault is it.

Society in general has been warned. You only have to look at history for the last 50 years to see it. In the early sixties the autommakers made little autos to compete with those little autos from across the ocean. Then those little american autos got bigger and bigger. In the early 70s OPEC cut oil production. The automakers thought about little cars and mileage again. In the 80s and 90s the consumer buys SUVs and big trucks. Whos' fault is it. Is cheap gas an entitlement. Should the automakers not sell the consumer what they wanted. Should the governments have put higher taxes on gasoline. tyb507 said this, what he didn't do was look at what was said or follow the links. It is no longer a what if situation. Corporate America is ramping up to make E85 an alternative fuel. Again E85 will not replace gas, as long as gas is available. In any case if you have an engine built for E85 you come out ahead. The only engines that will be built for E85 will be built by Hot Rodders. You can't build an engine for gas and E85. If you use E85 in a gas motor you lose gas mileage. If you use gas in a E85 motor you could destroy the motor.

I intend to try and take advantage of the situation, but then that has been the plan before. I'm still working and I will probably be working till the day I die.

All you can do is trust in the Lord and hope for the best.

Hopefully I'll get the pistons tomorrow.

Larry

Larry
E-85 will go on sale next month in my neighborhood and it is be advertised as a blessing to consumers because it will be thirty cents a gallon cheaper and it will elimate the oil problem. Which if you burn 20% more of it you will only be paying an extra 30 cents (based on $3.00 gas cost)(a usable gallon) to travel the same distance. I agree with what you say about the use of it now. But it will be interesting to see what happens 20 or thirty years from now, which I probably won't have to worry about. What effect will E-85 have on fuel pump diaphrams, carb accerator pumps and like items? I am not against the E-85 I just wonder if it is not another idea that won't work if it gets mass approval of the consumer. Another thought is what will happen to a computer controled system that sets timing advance using spark knock sensors such as many Chyrsler products. My wife filled our grand Caravan with premium once and with in 10 miles the check engine light came on and the engine started to limp. It took two tanks of regular to straighten out the problem.
Just thinking outloud,
Big Bill

As vehicle manufacturers proceed with hybrid engines and the like,I think that will increase the demand for E85 and in the not so distant future we will see more stations with E85 pumps.I also recently read that in Iowa in particular,corn farmers are now selling more corn to an E85 producer then they are shipping to overseas markets.I think that indicates that despite farming costs there is money in the fields to be made.

Gentlemen;

No matter how we argue, this needs to be done NOW and the American 'work ethic' can/will "make it happen."

I don't know why onions aren't grown here, but It's probably due to the 'marketplace'.

I don't know much about farming either, but we ALL know that soon there will be a market for more (corn soy) than the food producers will have time for. This means that others will be in the game as well. There must be tons of used farm equipment + what the 'big kids' won't need or want when they expand. I'll bet a 4X4 could pull a plow to get some people started. This puts American land back to work for America.

As I recall; Charles pulled the plow while Carolyn steared in one episode......

This 'special crop' should be grown all across the country where weather patterns/conditions vary, protecting it from nature/disaster etc.

EFI systems will be developed (here now) to adjust mixtures so the ratio gas/ethanol can increase, reducing our fossil fuel needs more.

This (to me) is a simple way to get America united again and break OPECs grip on our transportation systems.

Thanks, Larry for the assumptions. Did you mean the link to the Coallition for Ethanol website (what were you saying about agendas?) or the one with the happy sun shinning over the cartoon depiction of environmentally-friendly ethanol production that seemed to leave out a few key steps?
here's a few links (not without agendas, but informative, neverless):
http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$39813
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/BiofuelQA/Materials/nyt_12_08_05.htm
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/BiofuelQA/Materials/cafestanderd_06_04_06.htm
I guess the pros and cons depend on who you ask, and their agenda.
As for mine, yes, Mr. Griffin, it is quite old. Concern for the planet and fellow humans doesn't go out of style.

tyb507, Good to see you back. I'm not sure which link "the one with the happy sun shinning over the cartoon depiction of environmentally-friendly ethanol production that seemed to leave out a few key steps?? I tried to go back and find it, but it is a bit tedious with a dialup. Thank you for the links. The links were informative and interesting, though they seem to be contradictory. As I read Agusta article I was giving more weight to Big Bills' concerns about food production. Especially when Pimental comments "it's morally wrong to grow crops so the wealthy can drive cars". Then Patzek calculates the cost of production of a gallon of ethanol equal to gas at $4.74 a gallon. In Patzeks' calculations are included government subsidies. Patzeks' also says he uses two models for his calculations. I can believe Patzek uses two models, since all the other reading I've done day it is difficult to figure all the costs of production. (btw were did you get your figures for BTUs to produce ethanol) The Times article seems to contradict Pimentals' morallity issue. The Times makes a case that the surplus agricultral production of the U.S., the subsidies the U.S. gives Agriculture, and the subsequent dumping of agricultural products on the world market are destroying the third worlds ability to produce any income from there agricultural products. No argument. Now wouldn't using excess U.S. production to create ethanol eliminate the subsidies and dumping? That would take the subsidies out of Patzeks' models. Patzek who works in the petroleum industry pumping water into dry wells to get any residual oil out. Where did Patzek get his expertise in the production cost of agriculture. Your right "I guess the pros and cons depend on who you ask, and their agenda."

Though mentioned, no real consideration given to ethanol for being environmentally friendly and renewable.

It takes more than concern, recycle, drive less, turn the thermostat down or up for the season.

Larry

Old Greek saying - Reasoning and understanding with moderation.

Almost forgot got the pistons today. Measurements, pictures and calculations tomorrow.

Larry

The 'nay sayers', politicians and so called "intelectuals" will always find falt in order to justify their position, job or hidden agenda.

Here in California we've seen/heard this "doom & gloom" BS for decades.

Don't fall for it.

Larry, what did he mean by "mix it in any container"? Does he get it in pure form and mix in the gas to make it 85-15 ratio?

Did he say if it burned clear or if there is color and you can see it burn?

Abosoring moisture is not going to be good for vehicles that don't get driven much. Condensation in the fuel tank is going to be a problem for sure then.

Cool, you got the pistons,that was quick.

Do you have a stock piston that you can take a picture of so we can see the difference between the two?

thanks,vince

Right....everything's just fine, just ignore that gaping hole in the ozone and those clouds of smog...don't they make for a pretty sunset! Keep buying things and burning fuel like a good consumer. Do as you are told and have a nice day!

Your totally 'missing the point' here.

The increase of Ethanol & other energy sources will reduce fossil fuel needs, costs and our dependance on foreign sources.

If your going to debate us here, have the courtesy to post your name as well.

Happy trails.

I wasn't thrilled when I looked at the pistons. They are not a dome. They are a dish. The dish on the LPG piston is 14 CC. I'm not going to be able to get the ratios I wanted. The machine shop said he has filled in the top of the piston with welded. The piston on the left is low (7.3?) CR, center is high (8.0) CR, right is the LPG (9.0)

http://home.earthlink.net/~lggriffin/pistons.jpg

Larry

Hello Everyone,
I wish to say that I am sorry if you thought that I had any negative ideas or an axe to grind as I shared my thoughts about what I was reading here. I just start to add up the hidden cost to produce vegation such as corn and soy, then when I think of a farmer having to invest a half to three quarters of a million dollars in equipment to competively produce crops plus the cost of buying or renting land plus the cost of trucking of seed, fertilizer,herbicides and ect to field then product to market which might be a long way to mfg point. I begin to wonder what the true cost will be and how many people have that kind of capital to invest. The day of a man farming with a three bottom plow and a two row planter is long gone. The crops will be grown by large corporations who have to make money for their investors (isn't this what the oil companies just said about their large profits?) and the prices will go up and then we will discover that these large companies are owned by rich foreign oil sheiks. In todays world the small farmer that farmed 100 acres 60 years ago would make enough profit to buy his health insurance maybe. In todays world most farmers that are successfully supporting a family on the farm have a college education and have more money invested in their bussiness than we have the courage to think about.
These farmers can tell you what the true cost of planting a crop and getting it to the market will be almost to the penny. They can tell you if the rain or the tempatures are up or down what the result will be. This is how they make the judgement of when to replant a lost planting or when to cut their loses and hope for next year. If you want to do a interesting project in your spare time. Find out how many bushels of corn can be grown on an acre of ground, then check the market value, then add up the cost of planting and harvesting and hauling. see what your net difference is then decide if you would purchase a 100 acres to set your son up in bussiness plus co sign for used 30 to 40 year old equipment. You don't have to tell me the answer, I already know it, my family farm was sold for a high dollar sub-division thirty years ago. A friend of mine still owns 83 acres that he cash rents to a guy that farms about 1800 acres, he gets $7000.oo a year and does bettter than he ever did farming it after expenses. Another friend still owns 60 acres that he share crops with a large acreage farmer, this years when all the crops were sold and he settled up his half of the seed and chemicals he was only around $700.oo in the red (we had a bad weather year here last year) This is what scares me about E-85 cost going up in the future. Also if it requires special additives in the motor oil what are their effects on the evviroment going to be. If it is like;y to draw more moisture what will that do to our vehicles and the list goes on and on. I can only say that I hope most of these concerns are unfounded but I think they need to be considered. Another example was when the feds broke up AT&T we were going to see cheaper phone service, did any of your phone bills go down?
God's love to all,
Big Bill