Inliners International Forums General Discussion Bench racing Ethanol, E85 for fuel ???

Armond, II, Thanks for reminding to dust off Leo's book. Leo's says after 10.5 use studs. I think I like Twisteds' 351 head bolts. Though I don't think I'll need to cut one down. I have a little more stroke.

G10-250, One of the web sites mentions having to modify the circuits. I'll handle the problems as they come up. I've got enough spare parts and tools to handle most of it. I intend to go through a series of carbs. There have been a lot of unanswered questions concerning mileage.

Twisted6, Thanks for the head bolt suggestion. I don't think I'll use the 194 head. The more I think about it I'll go with a flat top piston and since you mention head thickness maybe a dome, I need to run the numbers. The 194 would back me into a corner. I'd rather change the head and compression. The pistons will delay things a bit. Which is not all bad rereading Leos' book I realize I've jumped the gun a bit.

Larry

E85 seems to be a hot topic on the web right now.

Sounds like a fun project,what are putting it in?

vince

Ops sorry about that I forgot your going to use the 292. So yeah you do have more meat up top over the water pump.The 194 on the 292 with a flat top will get you the compression your after very easy if not to Much. You can also go with a dished piston Or dish the flat top to get the compression that your after. The Flat top Or dished piston will give you a better burn trans. flame front to the other side of the bore Over the Pop-up, But you can also fire slot the dome to help get the flame front to the Other side of the bore.
Just a little more food for thought here.

G10-250, The motor will be going in my 63 C20. I'm not sure what I'll be using it for. It has had my camper on it.

Twisted6, I figured you had 250 burned on the brain, particularly with the new motor. The 194 would be too much right now. The flat top piston looks good from the numbers. On your web site there is a picture of a combustion chamber in the lump port section. Has that chamber been worked on? What about dishing the flat section of the head opposite the sparkplug?

Larry

Are you talking about the photo showing the Bolt for the Lump?? If so It has 194 valves That have Not been unshrouded.
No you DO NOT want to dish that area. that is what is known as the Quench area This is where Your compression comes into play the Most. Also That Area Is not as think as one may think.
If you Look at photo #6 You can see what Happened to the head when it ws MILLEd to thin and OVER Heated.

That's the photo and my question is answered.

Larry

Ok cool & your Welcome.

Sweet ride.
Is there many stations out in the valley that sell E85? I don't think I've seen any here in the bay area yet.

vince

You may have seen the truck, white with big cabover on running around the west side. I was in San Jose most of my life till about 2 years ago and I said enough.

At the present time there is only one gas station selling E85 in California and it is south of San Diego. CARB has not approved the nozzle to pump it with yet. I will be buying E85 from the same company that sells to the IRL.

Larry

I do remember seeing that style with a camper,does it have blue stripes on the camper?

I can see it now "honey I'm going to the gas station,see you in two days" LOL.

IRL= Indy Racing League?

So you are buying it by the barrel?

I like the way your thinking this through,when its available locally you will have all the bugs worked out.

vince

No blue stripe, there was once a polished aluminum panel down the sides above the bed.

"two days" with the side tanks may be a week.

You got it, besides the IRL they supply fuel to several other circuits.

A barrel is 3 gal.s short of filling all the tanks.

It's a little more than working the bugs out. I'm not sure why, but I've always wanted to run alcohol. Maybe it was my Dad telling me they ran Alcohol and water in the Corsairs in WWII. I want to document the changes mpg, torque, as I tinker.

Larry

I guess it wasn't you I was thinking of.

3 gals short of a full tank,sounds like the story of my life.lol

Were they burning alcohol & injecting water?

Here is something I've been wondering,what kind of engine oil do you need to run when running alcohol? Is there an oil out that will keep the corrosion down from fuel dilution? Or do you have to change the oil more often?

Sorry about all the questions, I find this to be an interesting topic.

vince

As the story goes the Corsairs would overheat climbing after a Zero. They would catch the Zero if they didn't overheat first. Evidently there was enough room in the cockpit that the Navy Aircraft mechanics could put a barrel of Alcohol and water behind the seat. How they actually turned it on I'm not sure, a valve(?). The end results was that there were fewer Zeros.

Engine oil, I've read that synthetic oil is required. I know that's what we used in the dragster running Methanol, but then that's extreme duty. I need to look into that further.

There was an interesting link posted on Stovebolt.com about a 292 rebuild that Truckworld magazine did;

http://www.truckworld.com/How-To-Tech/Chevrolet-Engine/Chevy-engine-2.html

In the article they talk about using a domed piston from Federal Mogul for running LPG. No picture showing the pistons, d*mn. I called Federal Mogul and talked to some techie, who said they don't exsist. I called Tom Langdon great guy, very knowledgeable. He said he had never run into tem. I want those piston anyone have a part number.

I got more information from Tom Langdon than I had hope for. There are two methods for Octane rating (I may have this wrong), Motor and research. There is a difference of 10 points between the two.

He aslo said that for every 2 points you raise the compression you gain 8% in power and 7% in mpg.. That presents an interesting trade off. The stock compression on the 292 is 8 to 1. With Ethanol you lose mpg. 20% or is it closer to 27% which is what you have to increase your jet size. So if you raise your compression ratio to 12 you gain 16% in power and lose 6-13% in mpg not considering anything else. Something to think about.

Larry

Larry, in reference to what you posted, here is a simplistic explanantion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

So they were using an alcohol & water mix to keep from overheating.Very interesting.

I remember back in my youth a buddy had a 13:1 motor he ran on the street and he was using an alcohol & water mix to keep it from pinging,it was hooked up to a vacuum line.

I read that motor build a couple of days ago.

I was looking at pistons at the autozone site and they list LPG pistions for the 250. Speed-pro I think.

So by raising the compression 2 points the gain is 8% power. Is the 7% mpg + or - ?

Is this using pump gas or E85 ?

vince

DrewII, thanks for the link. Now all have to do is find my math handbook or remember how to compute the octane of E85. 85% of 122.5 octane and 15% of 87 octane is?

Water (water and Alcoho) injection is used commonly on forced air induction systems today. Some forced induction kit manufactures include water injection in place of an inter-cooler and some wih an inter cooler. It depends on the amount of boost they are trying to achieve and other factors I'm probably not aware of.

Speed Pro is a division of Federl Mogul. I have to call Federal Mogul again and ask specifically for LPG pistons. I looked on NAPA and found pistons (the usual) in the delivery spot they said L.P. gas pistons have a longer delivery time or something to that effect. So I emailed them. There response was in as much, we don't carry them any longer go someplace else.

It's plus, plus. These are numbers that have come about in 75 years IC engine development.

The type of fuel only determines your maximum compression ratio.

Larry

Hi guys you have missed the entire reason that the goverment wants to switch to E-85. Your usage increases 20% so you are now buying more gallons of fuel so they increase their tax income by 20% since the tax is a per gallon charge. Think of all the extra money the could waste if the entire nation switched to E-85. They probably could fund a research program to prove that E-85 is going to kill us all! Then they could have us all switch back to opec, sort of like eatting Eggs.
Just a thought,
Big Bill

Well big bill I'm not sure what "reason" was missed. Your reason seems to fall under the heading of "WMD". The fault with your reason is that by the time the government goes through the process opec won't have any oil to sell. So why not build an engine to run E85, pay less than the 20%, and gain a little extra performance indefinitely. My 2 cents.

Larry

Larry;

I got the same story from NAPA too. So I guess Ross will get the job. BTW: NAPA here, no longer sells 'lug studs/nuts' made in this country. BALKAMP their Dist. no longer has Made in USA printed on the box.

Bill makes a good point, as 'taxes' via 'regulations' may have been why the E-85 price went up. We'll all just have to 'wait & see' how the 'mop flops' on this.

Here on the 'left coast' we've been hit so hard with Gov/political interference (in all walks of life) that It's really hard to see past it sometimes. Their getting away with this because most are so busy earning a living to pay attention, or see the "big picture".

The $3.00+ fuel prices have almost 'crippled' the "senior citizen" population/'war babies' who see past their deceit.

$1.00 a gallon fuel IS possible here W/O importing a thing.

By this time next year I will have conclusive data on solar. This will work great as the 'mid-west' has been spared this and is where all the farms are.

Happy Holiday.

Mr. Meredith, Atlast, a couple of things we agree. Our soldiers are brave, (the bravest) and that this website should not be used for political debate. Two things I do not agree with. Problems with oil productions was not the reason during Carter's term. Breaking the U. N. contract was most certainly not the reason for going into Iraq. If you will review your posts on 5-11 and 5-12 you will see who injected politics into this website about cars. I didn't post anything until several days later. I've got you figured out. You say what you want to and everyone else shut up and go away. I think you should take your own advice and keep politics out.

Your probably right, this IS a 'car club'.

Here's the place, for topics other than specific items (engines, driveline) to be discussed and YOU may disagree/speak ALL you like.

After over 50 years in the auto industry, I do get "carried away" (over It's decay) some times. Especialy the fuel and parts issues.

Happy Holiday.

John, Well enough said, and no disagreement with Harolds comments. I think all comments can be appreciated if on Topic.

I think your statement I quote "After over 50 years in the auto industry, I do get "carried away" (over It's decay) some times. Especialy the fuel and parts issues." is perhaps one reason this topic has been politicalized. I agree gasoline is a great fuel, it has been used for many, many years with success. In addition I think another reason is change. The politicalizing and the excuses alcohol will eat this, dissolve that, have me some what bewildered. This club that seems to promote inlines to be different. This club that promotes drag races, Salt Lake racing, and Hot Rods in general. Very few have every won a drag race the first time out or broken a record on the Salt flats. So what has changed with this group of "Hot Rodders". If it's not on the shelf you can't handle it.

My Dads' first car was a 32 Buick roadster in the late 30s. He couldn't afford a F*rd. The F*rds sold for more because they were faster and got better mileage than the Buicks, Huppmobiles, Reos and Oaklands. There were a few modifications made to that Buick (speed parts, no) downdraft carb from a GMC, the main drive on tranny broke while they were at they lighten the flywheel, a magneto from ????, and best of all they replaced the mufflers (Smittys, no) with irrigation pipe hacked sawed and baffles welded in. F*rds could still beat him off the line, but it wasn't long before he caught them. Change, in the fifties I sat with my Dad in the stands at the speedway and watched them destroy those F*rds in the modified races. My Dad sponsered the 54 California stated modified Champion. One of the reasons they won, they clearenced the rod and main bearings and put in a HD oil pump. In the sixties we were shaving heads and looking for all the octane we could get. In the seventies emission control, and don't touch your car if you want to pass the smog test. With the new cars today just to maintain it you have to buy hundreds of dollars in diagnostics equipment and anything major thousands of dollars, not to mention all the plumbing and wiring. I hope I've inherited some of Dads' Hot rodding.

What ever the reason is (demand) the price of gasoline is going up and up, it isn't just the price of gasoline, alcohol also. From the comments on this board and others the demand for alcohol won't be as great as gasoline. I'll build an engine for alcohol, it's a hobby I enjoy and willing to work at. I wish I had stayed with hot rodding along time ago. Hopefully I can blow of one or two the kids at the body shop on the corner. There is one particular F*rd pickup that comes up the street with is foot in every time and sounds like a buffalo in a wallow every time. :rolleyes:

Now where did that soap box come from.

Larry

John, Speaking of parts, I'm trying to locate those Federal Mogul gas pistons. I did a search for stocking distributors (right). I came across an outfit that puts together engine kits. I went to their web site not expecting much, surprise flat top pistons for a 292 with valve divits, ummm (hint). There were about 3 pages of pistons and these were near the end. Each piston 20, 30, 40, etc., had the spec.s compression ration, dished top etc.. These flat top pistons for the 292 listed 8.0 compression, why do I smell fish. I emailed them gave them the part number and told the compression should be more like 10.0 to 1. Asked if these weren't 250 pistons. Any bets on what there answer is going to be.

Larry

L;

These engines (292") produced more Hp & torque than the SBC when new. They were especially good in Tow Trucks. Somewhere 'along the line' they got "dished" lowering their capacity.

My 'bud' at NAPA looked for over a day and so did the machine shop people, same result.

If E-85 is 'regulated' to the price of gasoline no one will want it (20% less power) and this may be the point.

Solar can (& should) replace fossil fuel for home electric which will reduce our demand.

Sorry it wasn't autozone,can't remember were I saw them.

I'm with John, sounds like a job for Ross pistons.

What C/R are you shooting for?

Here's another thing I've wonder about E85, does it burn your eye's like when running alcohol?

vince

I believe ethanol & alcohol are a different formula.

I'm not sure how, perhaps someone can explain it.

John, you're right. Without getting technical
Ethanol(Ethyl Alcohol) is the base for all alcohols even the type one may drink.It is commonly called 100% or 200 Proof.Methanol is one of many derivitives and although I'm not too familiar with racing Methanol,I suspect that the effects we feel,taste or smell is due to additives as Ethanol in itself is odorless and
tasteless.

I called Federal Mogul again this morning and spoke with Matt in Tech dept. I asked specifically for the LP gas pistons. They do still exist and the part number is 980P-xx, xx being what ever the overbore is. Talked to the order dept. for availability and the 40 overs are in stock in LA. Still waiting on the other yeahoos.

Larry

Thanks Drew, it's good to know that burning eyes wont be a problem.

Good deal Larry, did you get them ordered?

vince

Hi John,
Alcohol is just a term for a chemical that has an -OH group in its chemistry. Ethanol and methanol are different in the length of the carbon chains that hold the -OH. Drinking methanol (aka wood alcohol) can be a problem tho - in the days of moonshine it was commonly refered to as "retina remover" as it left the patient blind. Great for race cars, but not drivers.
As a side note one of our local ethanol producers - Verasun energy - is going public soon. Shares look the be in the $20 price and they are planning to build 2 or 3 more plants in the upper midwest. We already have several plants in the area and they are all expanding. Looks like it is here to stay regardless of the politics.

L;

I'll try that # at my local & see, thanks....

6 n row;

What's the trading symbol?? Let's watch.
I wanted to buy Autozone when it was $21 & didn't. I think It's around a $100 now.

Here in California were ALL 'burned out' with political interference under the name of "correctness".

Enough said on that.

John, I dont know the symbol. I believe the SEC only gave a tentateve one because VeraSun still has to jump through all the federal hoops to make the IPO happen. I believe it could take 3-6 months to "git-r-dun" and start selling stock. I'll keep you posted. They are in the office next door, so I should be able to keep an eye on them (haha)
Amen to the political interference under the name of "correcrness", brother

Tomorrow is payday so I hope to have the pistons ordered by Friday afternoon.

I got a response from the engine kit place. It was as I expected the high compression (8.0) pistons with 'D' shaped recess. I mailed him back said thanks, but I had found the right piston.

I just looked at Leo's book again. On page 54 there is a picture of a rod and a "dome" piston. The dome piston he refers to is what I thought was called a popup. Leo also refers to the LP gas pistons again on page 56 as having 9 to 1 compression. Does anyone have a spec sheet on these pistons. I set my spreadsheet up for flat top pistons, 10 cc for gasket (didn't include deck height) and there is a significant difference from stock 10.5 with a slightly larger stock combustion chamber. With any kind of dome I'm thinking close to 12.0 to one.

I think I figured out the octane of E85. I posted previously that Ethanols octane was 122.5. I arrived at that number by averaging the the RON and MON numbers I found on one of the link. The average of RON and MON is what the Feds use for the number on the pump. So 85 parts Ethanol (85 x 122.5 = 10412.5) + 15 parts regular (15 x 87 = 1305) divided by 100 comes to 117 octane. Did I do the math right?

Larry

I'm checking that part number/price here too & I'll let ya know when I know something.

We can't really know how it will work till we have some to try etc. It's going to be okay for most (stock) autos though.

Like anything that's new there will be 'bugs' to work out.

This silly bit of info isn't worth much here,but my 4 stroke B&S riding mower is running good using 10% ethanol/gas mixture that New Jersey sells here.It's BP by the way.I know,so what. I just thought I'd throw that in the pot. :rolleyes:

Hello
Larry, My note was just a simple comment that as a society we should research things before we change them, to see what the cause and effect might be. My example of eating eggs was referring to the thought that you should never eat eggs because they caused high cholestrol, now they have found they aren't nearly as bad as they thought for years, but how many egg farmers went broke or had to change lines of farming because of it. I am 200% in favor of new ideas and progress but before everyone tries to change the world maybe some questions should be answered. I think a alcohol based fuel is a great idea if the nation truly has the ability to produce it in quanities required and not cause shortages or major price changes in other areas such as the food chain. One of the major causes of the increase in fuel and anti freeze prices is the amount of oil used in plastics from which almost every thing we use or wear is made from. Another thing is the notion we all have that we should have modern highways where we can go any where we want quickly and safely. These take tax dollars to build and maintain. I am retired and would love to see all prices drop by about 90% but I'm not willing to give up my modern life style to do it. So I will have to make do with what I can afford. I remember the "GOOD OLD DAYS" when I mowed grass with a reel type push mower and there was no TV to watch, there wasn't even fast food, and AC,PS,PB which we consider standard must haves on our cars today didn't exist.
Some times we do things like put 1500 cfm of carb on a 250 cu in engine then try to drive it on the street and wonder why it doesn't work as we think it should.
God's Love to All
Big Bill

Howdy Big Bill, I'm not sure if I want to say I tend to agree with you or totally agree with you. If as a society more research had been done before changes were made would they be the right change, maybe, maybe not. Your egg example is proof of that. I would like to think if society had more common sense things would be different. Has enough research been done on ethanol for fuel, probably not. I do know that there are some large corporations that have done enough research to commit to building at least 16 new factories to produce ethanol. There is also research being done on a hybrid of corn specifically for the production of ethanol. One of the complaints about ethanol is the cost of production. Most of the plants in the United States are of an older design and use a costly method of production. In Brazil they did change to ethanol for fuel thirty years ago. They have lowered the cost of the production ethanol. Are the new plants coming on line in the US, going to use the old method, no. Will the cost of E85 at the pump go down, no. In the Agricultural Industry historically as production has gone up the cost of production has gone down. Now what happens if you tie a renewable agricultral product to a diminishing resource. The price doesn't go down. If you think the oil companies profits are outrageous. Is gasoline going away, no, not till the last drop of oil has been pumped out of the ground. Now if you have a gas station with three pumps which one do you sacrifice. If you are one of the major oil companies you may not have a choice. Now is this conjecture, not ethanol. Can a capitalistic society do anything about it, not unless they want to give up their "modern life style".

All we can do is trust in the Lord, be aware of what is going on and try and take advantage of it with out hurting anyone. The last part is where common sense may have fallen down.

btw I rarely eat fast food and don't have AC or PS, one truck does have PB, the one that the rebuilt 292 will be in.

Larry

If it works well in a Brigs engine (today) and a WWII Corsair in the 40s, It's okay for water cooled cars.

We (society) can't afford any more delays on this. Energy 'independence' is long overdue.

Alcohol base fuel is much safer as well. There is no danger of explosion like gas. Most likely the grain & cane required won't need to be the same quality as food.

There will be plenty of eggs & chickens.

Energy independence reqires more than fiding a substitute for gasoline. Some changes need to start at home. How many use a 20-40 year old truck as a daily driver? How many bike to the store two miles away instead of driving?
We need to examine our lifestyle, and how we make the rest of the world pay to support it. We (as a society) consume more that our share of the worlds resources, and people around the world are suffering under US-supported repressive regimes, and in US-led wars so we can get cheap gas ($3.00/gal is cheap!).
In the real world, things cost more than we pay for them, whether the cost is the life of an Iraqi civilian, the childhood of the 12 year old indosesian making Nike shoes, or the health of the planet and it's inhabitants.
Mr. Meredith is right about solar power, it's a good place to start. I have friends with simple setups that are selling power back into the grid! But there is more to be done; thinking about how much energy your car burns is a good thing to do.
One gallon of ehtanol takes 131,000BTU's to produce, and only has an energy value of 77,000btu. And that energy is going up the smokestack at coal/fossil fuel-powered ethanol plants.
Argue all you want about the virtues of ethanol. It's just a distraction from the bigger picture. A buzz word for the Thief-in-Chief to drop in his speaches while avoiding real issues. Remember hydrogen?

tyb507, I remind you that the world always has been, and always will be about politics. Like it or not, thats the way the world operates. THAT is the big picture. All we can do is make our own corner of the world a better place. This forum should be about inlines. please respect that