Inliners International Forums General Discussion Bench racing Ethanol, E85 for fuel ???

I saw a thread on Stovebolt about E85 as fuel. The general tone of the replies seemed to be negative. I agree E85 is not a direct replacement for gas. Older vehicles need larger jets, and some components in the fuel system need to be made alcohol resistant. The mileage in a standard engine is not good. E85 has an octane rating of 107. E85 also produces less emissions. If an engine was built for E85, say a compression ratio of 10-12, would gas mileage be the same???
Last time we bought alcohol for the dragster it was $2.25 a gal.

Larry

hay larry we have just run some tests here in australia on some CAT 789, 793, dump trucks . i had a chance to talk with the cheif chemist about the pro's and con's of mixing ethanol with diesel. the mining company's are trying the mix purely for emissions and to look politicaly correct!! the chemist has done research on petrol {gas your country} engines as well and while they do burn cleaner i dont think they were any better on economy , another thing was once you run one a blended fuel you should stay on it as the gaskets swell a little more with the water content in the blended fuel if you switch back they shrink back causing leaks. i take it your E85 fuel is 15 percent ethanol 85 gasoline??? was dragster you bought alcohol for a inline deal??

First E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gas. I wasn't aware that you mix alcohol and diesel. My thought is unless you build your engine for alcohol your going to loose economy.
The dragster was a sbc, but there wasn't anything made by GM. We ran Good Guys Nostalgia drags, Jr Fuel.

Larry

This like solar technology here, has been subverted by the Feds.

The 2 main ingredents of alcohol are grain which we have plenty and sugar which the soft drink companies throw away millions of gallons of after their drinks are made each year.

Here's the hitch; they (grain/sugar) must be distilled to make a burnable liquid. Enter the ATF that blocks every attempt to do this everywhere in the US.

Alcohol as a second fuel can be used in about of 30% of our country (perhaps more) but this R&D isn't allowed.

The electric car was developed by Chysler & General Electric decades ago with a range of 300 miles. A great second car but R&D on the battery technolgy is stalled by EPA for possible environmental risks.

These are the same folks that require "smog devices" that cause your vehicle to use more fuel to clean the air.

Go figuer????

Hi,
I'm not sure "negative" should be the tone for E-85. It is just different. We are so used to conventional gasoline and its effects, that we see anything different as "bad".

There are several local ethanol plants that make hundreds of millions of gallons annually. E-85 has some advantages and some disadvantages. Fuel economy will go down about 20%. But the octane rating is very high. It doesnt pollute the atmosphere, but your crankcase will really notice a difference. Synthetic oil is recommeded, and oil changes should be about 7500 miles. Jetting might change a bit, but not much. Compression isnt much of a factor either - a mildly hopped up 6 is fine. Older carbs do not like it much, but modern computer controlled engines can use it at about 50% or 60% blend with no problem if it is done gradually. the oxygen sensors have to get little doses at a time until the recognize the alcohol as "OK". John is right - don't even get started with the politics of the stuff.
In short E-85 will work fine in a 235, but there are some changes you have to concede. And it might not be any more economical by the time you factor the service and the mileage. I'm still going to do it in my '56 this summer

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that as far as destruction of gaskets are concerned on early engines such as my 235 that I should not have a problem because the gaskets are cork except for valve and rear crank seals,and not a synthetic. However, your mentioning of requiring the use of synthetic oil, I wonder if that's really good for older engines.When you or anybody else runs E85, I'd like to read about the results.

Reading through this got me to thinking. If E85 drops mileage by 20% then in order to break even the price would need to be less than a comparable amount of gasoline or the buyer wouldn't see any reduction in fuel costs. Emissions and petroleum shortages are secondary reasons to the average motorist who right now is paying dearly just to be able to go back and forth to work. At a 20% reduction in miles per gallon E85 would take 5 qts being sold for the same amount as 4 qts of gasoline to be equal in price. I guess what this is what I said in the beginning: the price would have to be LESS than gas. Anyone see that happening in the remote future? R&D costs, new equipment to handle the product distribution, and all of that will simply be passed on in a price per gallon at the retail level. Until all start up costs are amortized and E85 becomes the sole fuel in demand it will just cost more per gallon all the way around.

Just my opinon on the matter but see what happens when I start thinking?

I'm changing to E-85 in my 2001 Toyota Tundra right now. I add a gallon of E-85 to the first tank and increase it 1 gallon each time I fill. I run the tank until as close to empty as I can get. I'll stop at 50% and try that for a while before I try any further. People around here can only get to about 65% if the vehicles are not true "flex-fuel" vehicles. My dad is doing it with his 97 cad that needs premium.
I'll let you know how it goes in my 56. What the hell, at least it will be neat conversation
Regarding synthetic oil, manufacturers who produce E-85 recommend synthetic oil because they handle the corrosive and dirt by products of cumbustion better.

Mike G - you hit the nail on the head. That is the politics of it all, and it is ridiculous. here are some things to think about. Maybe not politically correct, but truth non-the-less. I'd like to ask the government about E-85. Corn is subsidized so the taxpayer "owns" a significant portion of it. By and large the ethanol plants are subsidized. We all know about the oil industry. E-85 is way overpriced. for what the public has already paid, it should be $1 per gallon in my opinion. then there would be incentive to use it. The way the system is now set up, e-85 can only work because of the good hearts of those buying it or the continual welfare mentality of those in the industry - who is in bed with whom? I am afraid by the time it is all settled, E-85 will be priced 15-20% less than conventional gasoline, so it will result in no net savings to anyone, and somewhere, there will be windfall profits . any guess who that will be?

With the higher octang & running a higher compression One would think You would not lose as much MPGs Because of the performance gain Between the two.

Gentlemen;

The 'politics' of all this is massave to say the least & has since the end of WWII when the USA started importing oil from Saudi Arabia & the 'mid east'.

The "washington wisdom" then was to use theirs & save ours for future use etc. Also it is much easier to get the oil (out of ground) there than here.

In 3 years or less we (Americans) could stop using their oil all together, going to natural gas, electric, alcohol et al; keeping the monies involved here.

The BIG problem is the rest of the world cannot.

I think; Because much of their technology comes from us the Feds. surpess everything in this area.

A 'battle' is looming however; as the EPA & DOE are at oposite ends of it all.

John, How do you see it all working itself out? $5 gas? $2 domestic gas? E-85? Electric?

Despite it's octane number it's my limited understanding that E85 is not mixed as a power fuel like a racing fuel would be and so you could only increase performance with higher compression using E85.

Drew not quite right on the first post, cork does not get along with alcohol (ethanol or methanol) according to this web site

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html

it also specifies that some plastics like polyurthane. They also suggest giving your fuel system components a bath in alcohol and see which ones come out, well that's one method. I wonder if they make alcohol approved carb kits, just a thought.

Jet size and compression is a factor. Jets need to be enlarged by 27% for pure alcohol, ok start with less and work up. Compression this the one I'm wondering about. The octane figures for e85 range from 100 to 107. Does any one know or have any experience on what increases mileage might be gained from upping the compression? I'll even settle for guesses. What compression ratio can I run on with the current premium gas?
The Jr Fuel dragsters are required to run straight methanol and are regularly checked to make sure they are. Our dragster ran 14:1 compression. Our best time was 7.13, 186 mph in the quarter. Power fuel?
btw I cc'd my 292 head and now know why the 194 head is desireable.

Gas mileage and price is a factor. Thank you John for your input, it got me to thinking. Here is a link on how to make your own ethanol and get around the ATF.
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id36.html

An article in "Rod & Custom" or one of the truck mags made me aware that e85 even existed. There are 95 production stations, and 2400 gas station dispensing it in the midwest. It's not available in CA yet (except one station south of San Diego) because CARB has not approved a nozzle to dispense it yet???? Alcohol is a product of the Agriculral Industry and is distributed by the Petroleum Industry. When you go to a gas station, who put the prices on the pumps. What don't I understand.

Another thing that prompted me to start this topic is I have a local source that will mix e85 for me. Friday afternoon I'll see if I can get a price.

Perhaps some one could post the prices in their area.

Larry
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. - Benjamin Franklin

Well; Ben Franklyn was 'right on' there, wasn't he??

Solar technology will power most houses (it can now) and the price of all fuels will drop as the electric car (battery)is developed.

What's keeping it all FUBAR, is that the Feds. can't afford to lose the fuel tax that this mess provides them. Every time oil moves, It's taxed. We (the consumer) only see the pump tax(s). Probably a dollar of the $3.00+ goes to the US Gov. (overall). The Clinton's were a big part of it by not letting any refinerys be built.

Where would they be W/O that money?? They can barely ballance things with it.

For a slap in the face, research how many refineries we had 30 years ago and how many have been shut down since 1995. Don't get caught up in jackasses and olifonts. It's all about the oil companies and who they own.

Larry G,
Thanks for clearing that info up for me on cork gaskets. Very interesting articles you included too.We have a local plastics plant that was closed and it's now being pushed by our local county and state representatives to turn it into an ethanol plant.We still have lots of corn farmers in South Jersey and could use the employment, but from what you all say about regs, it may never happen.

Dear Armond;

ANY private business operates based on what the law allows it to do & how it operates.

Since WWII the Feds. have consistantly made it more profitable for them (Oil Co.) to do business with OPEC rather than R & D here. This is a multi faceted legal configuration covering their total operation(s).

Your right we've needed more refinery(s) for more than 20 years. But when several bills were in Congress to resolve this shortage the Clinton Administration in league with environmental extreamists blocked them all.

This is not to say that the "Bill & HIll gang" are to blame for it all.

Gentlemen, The number of refineries, the amount of R&D, or Alasken oil is not going to stop the price of gas from climbing. Two thirds of the worlds oil reserves are in the middle east (OPEC), 3% are in Alaska, the United States consumes half of the worlds production of oil. China has the largiest population and one of the fastiest growing ecomonies there is. China is buying cars and using oil. GM is going to manufacture cars in China. They are not going to be riding bicycles much longer.

I googled "ethanol" It appears that the price of ethanol has followed the price of gas. Two years ago the price of ethanol was 1.40 a gal, now it's 2.75. Archer Daniels Midland is big on ethanol they have 2-3 plants being built to produce more. They intend to produce 1.5 billion gallons. My 2 cents for the day.

Larry

Mr. Griffin is correct.

The main thing is that; We became MORE dependant by NOT keeping up (through R & D) here for our own needs as our population increased.

Technology is a great tool that we (USA) possses. To not use it is very foolish and makes us more vunerable when China's technology reaches our level.

Another "Bill & Hill" legacy.

The drilling & refinery issues were here before.

The 'ethanol issue' has been on the table for Three decades as well. It will help, but may be to little to late. Only time will tell.

Larry,
I paid $2.84/gal for 10% ethanol and $2.34 for E85 today
We have a few more plants that are being built to produce E85 in eastern South Dakota. They should be able to produce about 350 million gallons per year. I am not sure what the current plants produce, but it has to be in the 350M gallon range right now. So, it looks like e85 is a player in the future

I agree E85 will be a player, but there is a lot to be sorted out yet. The market place will sort it out, but with an 18% difference and perhaps a 20% loss in mileage it will take a while.

Here is another web site dealing ethanol. I can't say there is anything significant about it, but you find current and future production figures.

http://www.ethanol.org/

I wish there was a flat top piston available for the 292 without going forged.

Larry

Another thought;

Let's 'geneticaly engineer' sugar cane to grow in the mid west (USA)!!

Cane + Grain=E-85

Go Acher Daniels Midland.....and the American farmer.

Greetings . . .

Right now I think the formula is:

Cain + Grain + Coal = E85

Until the processes used to distill biomass into ethanol take greater advantage of the carbon in the biomass - we're simply trading a coal fired smoke stack producing electricity (that is in turn used in the distallation process) for a gallon of grain alcohol.

Granted this would elminate dependence on foreign oil sources - but do we really want to burn any more coal then we already burn?

The other troublesome problem with ethanol is the BTU rating of the stuff. A gallon of ethanol is like 2/3 of a gallon of regular gas. So if gas is going for $3 and ethanol is going for $2 it is a wash to the consumer. But even with 'parity' of price it's less convenient. If 20 gallons of gas takes their car 400 miles - 20 gallons of ethanol will take them only 266 miles. They may do 10-15% better than this - if the flex fuel system runs correctly and leans out the mixture - and the driver's foot isn't to heavy (cause the car just isn't as peppy as it was on pure gas). But ultimately you really need a higher compression ratio engine to take best advantage of ethanol - but then you don't have flexible fuel engine.

I think E85 will be a player in the market - but I don't see it as the final solution to our problems . We simply demand way more energy then we can produce domestically.

For me the most important thing we can do in America is agree on a single standard for fuels across the county. This will eliminate spot shortages for specific formulations and eliminate some of the volatility in price that we currently experience. Why do we need 5 different specifications for fuel in this country? It's more when you consider summer versus winter formulations in some markets.

regards,
stock49

Biomass Ethanol
Gas is Gas?
Ethanol the answer?

There is a fellow in Clearwater that has developed a HHO gas engine. 100 mile trip he used 4 ounces. Is presently building an engine for the military. And is working with one of the big three. Looks pretty good to me.


John

I don't think ethanol works as well in the cold climate as it does elsewhere. Gas needs to be different due to changes in altitude, temperature, humidity and the terrain.

The hydrogene engine has been around too. The concern here is the "explosion factor" in a traffic collision and the transportation & storage of it nationwide.

When solar replaces the energy now used to light our homes, what is now used will go toward transportation needs.

Here is where we can expect the most resistance from government. They are making a major effort to monitor all solar power units.

For right now gas is; "the biggest bang for the buck".... :p

Answer is to send the E85 junk to China.

I love it!!!.

GM could design them to take a 'specialized' fuel cell (made in USA) only.

As they (China cars) need refueling they simply send us back their empty cells for refill.

Ah Ha; We were all looking at this from the "rong" perspective.

Thank you Mr. Ryan!

Very interesting stuff.

So us older car people are S.O.L.,unless someone comes out with a carb kit that is combatible with the alcohol?

I think Mr Ryan & Mr Meredith have a good idea,send it over seas.

vince

Brilliant!! A chicken finger in every wok and an E85 vehicle in every pagoda.

Hey John; This is not a hydrogene motor as we know. Completely different. I found it very interesting. Was originally designed to take the place of acetalyne when using a torch. I'll send you the video from channel 24 in clearwater if you want. This uses only water and electricity.
Cheers!!!

Do you think that the cam companies will be coming out with E85 cams in the future.

vince

Sure, send the video. NTSC VHS

I think the RV cams we have now will work with a different 'chip' for the computer controlled EFI folks.

A little off topic.
I was reading yesterdays paper and there was a story about a local guy that modified a Toyota Prius to "plug-in" and claims 100 mpg. There is meeting with the CEOs of the Big 3 and Leaders of Congress on Thursday and he plans on showing his car.
Here is the part I find funny he flew the car to Washington on Monday instead of driving it there.

Anyways here is his site, calcars.org

vince

So it would appear that he has a 100mpg trailer queen. I hope he doesn't ramble on about durability and dependability.

That's no "trailer queen," but maybe a "fly-by-night operation." We may may wonder whether it flew "economy class." Perhaps they had to fly it because it wouldn't get there on time at 25 mph.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

Can't say this topic has gone in the direction I had intended, probably my fault. The respnses are very similar to the resonses I saw on Stovebolt, though a few additional "Alternative" fuel systems have been mentioned. Let's see if I can redirect a bit. :rolleyes:

Evidently Ethanol is here to stay whether you like it or not. The local paper says there is going to be an Ethanol plant built about 20 miles away. The company that is building that plant is planning 5 more in California. I've also read reports that the IRL is switching to Ethanol. GM is pressuring NASCAR to switch to Ethanol. It might be interesting to see what happens with NASCAR. Since NASCAR already has a contract with Sunoco for fuel , but then they are also considering a new engine spec.

There was a time when Hot Rodders couldn't get enough Octane. There were arguements as to whether one oil companies 101 octane was as good as the other oil companies 103 octane. Now that there is a fuel out there that is 105 plus, no body sems thrilled. I've even seen 113 octane cliamed, but I'm thinking that must be straight ethanol. Any how I've been wanting to build an engine for alcohol, soo... I've got a 292 on the engine stand, I want to build for the street.

With E85 you are going to loose gas mileage. There just isn't as much energy in E85 as gas. You need to increase the jet size by about 27%. A cam isn't going to change the air fuel ratio. The only thing that will take advantage of E85 is the compression ratio. I'm thinking I want to go 11-12 to one on compression. It doesn't look like I can get there with out a 194 head or forged pistons. I don't wan t to buy forged pistons for the street. A good set of cast flat top pistons would be perfect. With the right pistons I could use one of the 3 heads I've got now. At what compression ratio do I need to think about using studs in place of the head bolts? Is it also true that one of the front threaded holes has a tendency to crack? That will do for now.

Larry

Morning Larry, you're right, the world is changing and we must change with it or go the way of the dinosaurs. I'll be over working on Leo's Stude again Monday and will run this by him. My first thought is the 194 head shrouds the valves if you try to increase their size. So it could only be cammed for torque and low RPM. Which could go toward the mileage factor quite nicely. Because of this, studs may not be necessary but anything that makes an engine stronger, can't be bad. Like any engine build, first you must decide how it will be used, then built to do it (one must be realistic). Bummer we can't get gas with this octane rating, if you build an engine for E85, it will be very unhappy with anything less. Maybe we can keep this thread a little more on the tech side.

Sorry about that Larry.

So you are building a E85 motor?Thats cool.

Do you have to enrichen all circuits of the carb or just the main jets?

vince

The 194 can be Used if You unshroud The Valves.Even useing one of the other heads You should unshroud the valves with them as well. If your going to run a 1.94 valve On another Note Yu can go with the 1.8 smb 305 valve Which will work well in both heads and You wouldn't have to unshroud it as much. And in my 2cent oppion The 194 head would be better Because you would have to mill nearly as much Off it ,To Keep the higher compression. Then if you would use one of the other heads.Plus you would have a Thicker Head Face Because Your Not Milling as much off.
As for useing studs 11-1 and Up. BUT I have found out that The 351 Ford head bolts That have the Built in washer face Will hold 11.5,12-1 with out a problem. But the Driverside Over the water Pump Needs to be cut down So that it doesn't hit the water pump impeller. Been there HAD them in for 3yrs.Never once Blew a head gasket.

You could???? always O ring the Block. If you wanted to. But a better muct do if 12-1 OR Higher for long turm Holding power/sealing But still has been known to still blow a gasket when Racing after so many Passes.