Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance webrodder stroker series

I think that's fair, When do we need to send the $$, where?

I'll just keep tabs here and see who is interested. I'll keep Frohmader posted and if there is enough interest, I'm sure he will do it.

Looks like there are 3 so far. Come on Inliners, step up to the plate and commit.

Tom,

I would definitely be in for the 235-261 information in book form. I need it to add to my collection of Chevy six "How-to" articles and books going back to 1949, and to prepare for my future 261 builds. The Webrodder series has gome great information and is well-prepared. I'm really not interested in spending any money on material about Pontiac 6 or 292 builds, however, but count me in. Are you or Frohmader coming to the Inliners' convention in Iowa this June? It would be great to meet you.

I'll spring for it too.With the cost of lithography(pics), $50 or + seems fair. And afterall, there's a lot of research done for us too. that's a big cost saver in itself.

Hoyt, I'd like to go to the midwest inliners - its my birthday weekend. If I get this stupid car together I will plan on going.

I'm not really worth meeting.

Tom, I'd still like to meet you though

Count me in. I"ve already bought each article online. I'd pay for the book.

maybe I can get you a credit.

Don't worry about it. It's for a noble cause!

I haven't been able to get on the webrodder site from the link on the 1st post. I have 1-5 and am wanting to get the next 2. Any suggestions???

Try here: http://webrodder.com

I would definitely buy one.

The webrodder site still isn't working. Is it just me?

Opens up just fine for me.

I linked to it ok too.

Me too. Joe Dial

I will buy one. Joe

Well, we are still at it. We are taking several heads - we dont know how many yet - and putting them on a flow bench to see what the stockers will do and then charting all the info. Hopefully we will be able to show what the common heads flow at various predeterminded spots. Then we are goin to see what common head mods will do to to the heads. what we will attempt to do is point out the easy mods that will help the engine breathe and show where common mistakes are made. then we can pick the cam and carb and ignition and be on our way.

We are a couple weeks from having the flow info. Stay tunded, I will keep you updated. thanks for the support from the inliners

Always looking forward to new article additions to the series.I still think you should print a guideline manual someday.

Hi Drew - a book will likely be printed - check out the previous posts - page 5 and 6. It will ahve all the series articles in it and then hopefully some others of interest for the 235/261

Tom, count me in!
I probable won't be stroking my 235 but there is so much other useful info that this would be a must have for the home builder. I really like the rear seal idea. It could be used on the engine reguardless of how much or how little a guy plans on building up the motor.

Tom,

Looking forward to the head flow test results. If I use the methods that we use at work for flow predictions, I come up with an intake flow of 147 SCFM at 0.400" of valve lift and 156 SCFM at 0.500" of lift. A well-ported head should increase these flows to 167 and 178 SCFM, respectively. The Wayne 12 port head should give 260 SCFM at 0.500" of lift.

I don't have a prediction for the exhaust side yet, as the effect of the shrouding is hard to predict with the SAE pressure loss curves. I'll try to have something shortly.

Also looking forward to the "book" on Webrodder series. I am committed to buying one.

Hey Hoyt, thanks for the info. email me - I have some questions as to how you did this, and on what head etc.

Tom

I bought a copy of #1 to see what the info was like. Certainly good historical info and good detail. Very useful for someone who grew up in the sports car world-far removed from the low rpm-hi torque Stovebolt engines. I just got my round tuit to start on a high pressure '56 235 for a 53 P/U, so when will the complete publication be on the market? I can sign up for a copy if it hits the market soon enough. Or do I need to buy all the individual documents and assemble my own book?

Zeke,Thanks for that article update link.

I apologize greatly if my post upset you. That was not my intention. I simply thought people would appreciate an update on where things are with this article series that many are enjoying.

I truly apologize and by no means intended or intend to stir anything up by posting the link.

Original Message -----
From: "EDITOR" <editor@webrodder.com>
To: "Tom Schmanski" <tomski@brookings.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:31 AM
Subject: 235


> Tom:
> Right now I am STILL waiting for the rods to be completed. I have
> the crank back and plan to try to get some assembly done before I have
> to leave. The block is still empty. For the next while I can install
> the cam bearings and cam, I can install the crank, and then when the
> rods get done I can balance and assemble the rods/pistons. It's going
> to be a while.
>
> Doc
>
Maybe someone will post a link to this thread on Webrodder. Frohmader might remember what he told me in December

It looks like Frohmader took my post off his website.

Here it is:

On December 5th you received a UPS package containing HEI, coil, cam bearings, oil pump, oil filter for full flow conversion, main bearings, BHJ balancer, 8 oz Chevy engine Oil assembly, lifters, pushrods. here is the UPS delivery confirmation:

Tracking Number: 1Z FV8 745 03 2258 804 6

Type: Package
Status: Delivered
Delivered On: 12/05/2007
1:18 P.M.
Delivered To: BELLE FOURCHE, SD, US
Service: GROUND

emails on Wed April 16 say you evidently have yet to find this package.

On December 7th I shipped a cam from Delta Camshafts, but dont have the UPS info. I think I can find it, but probably not.

On February 1 Danese Dykes sent another cam to you, but I dont have that UPS info, I am sure as detailed as she is, I could get it.

In Feb 1 I delivered a newly rebuilt head to Jobjens shop and as of last wed you still had not bothered to pick it up. As a matter of fact, Joe Ceretti told me you were there on tuesday and didnt take it. the head is now in Caputa

In late February you called me and informed me that both cams were unsatisfactory and the head would not be acceptable. That was the first time I found out I was responsible for the flow info. I am still OK with that, now that I think I understand what you are looking for with the cylinder head info. A little advace info and confering with Jeff Dyce as he did the head would have prevented a lot of confusion and finger pointing.

Maybe its not all my "fault" as you indicated.
_________________
"I aint goin' off to some fancy college. I'm stayin' right here having fun - as usual."

Tom: Do you have an update on this saga that you would be willing to share with us? This seemed such a promising project, and it seems there's a fair amount of interest here. I just happened upon this recently.

Thanks,

Bryan

Yes Tom, your correct! That is the main emphasis of this project that I am spearheading! It seems as you have mentioned, that the stroker project has kinda' fallen off the table, at least in the cylinder head department! I will gladly pick up the ball,and move forward with it so yall wont be left hangin' without an ending! The steps I am taking will hopefully take a 21st century approach to developing better porting techniques for these early 6's, and open some untapped potential that lays hidden. And of course, these findings will be shared with all Inliners for there personal use and enjoyment!

Thanks for the update, guys!

BTW, here's an interesting website for the 194-292 heads...maybe there's some info here you can use.

http://www.t6racing.org/index.html

Bryan, That is the commercial web site of Larry,Twisted6, who is the moderator of this forum and others here. He is always helpful to Inliners in answering questions and serving the club.
The policy here is that members can't promote their own commercial sites, but another member like me can. I'm also listing CNC-Dude's site because he is having an immediate impact in these forums with his historical knowledge and his willingness to advance the engineering of older inlines.

http://www.marshallsince62.com/

I just realized I slighted Tom. Sorry about that. The webrodder Stovebolt Six that Tom contributed to in knowledge and money I'm guessing, is a great series. It's a shame it wasn't completed. I purchased all the articles on that series because it's a wealth of info and I was concerned that it would disappear off the site. So thanks Tom for your effort too.

I guess my question is, what is it going to take to get it finished? Perhaps some of the readers here may want to contribute time, money, parts, and/or information to the project to see it through to completion. At that point, then perhaps a rough idea of what the total cost involved was(or, what the cost should have been if things had gone smoother). For example, if it ended up costing $15k, that's going to deter a lot of folks, but if it ended up being a lot less than that, that might encourage some folks to proceed, knowing that they could build it for a "reasonable" cost (whatever that number ends up being!)

As far as Larry's website, perhaps his custom head work as shown there may give the 235/261's here some ideas.

Well, that is a question with no simple answer. The short answer is to flow the head and publish the info and let everyone figure out what they want to do with induction and lower end and its done.

The longer answer - the way it should be done and the way I wanted to see it through is as follows:


Once the cylinder head is cut up, flowed, photographed, modified and flowed again and modified again and flowed again etc until its completed, then the bulk of the information is gathered.

Then it is a matter of collecting all of the info in the head and publishing it or posting it so there is enough detail it can be understood by everyone - novice and expert alike.

Then we get this info so cam grinders or our vendors (plug for Patrick Dykes here) can analyze the cams available and if one is available to complement the cylinder head and lower end work that has been chosen. If not, they see about designing new cams. My feeling is that the cam companies probably have profiles that are so close to what we want to do, that it wont be necessary to redesign a cam.

At the same time, the induction systems, ignition, exhaust, pistons manufacturers (I was going to ask my long time friend Nick Arias for help here) etc. should be analyzed in the same manner as the cams above. They can be matched or modified to the head and the cam. Again, I think regarding most of this is, we already know what works best in most circumstances. For example, we tell Nick Arias what we want to do and give him the specs so far and he will come up with the right piston in about 10 minutes.

The whole reason I wanted to get involved is because I have never seen any raw empirical numbers on any of this. I am convinced my 235 can be tweaked a bit here and there to improve its efficinecy. I just dont know where the little improvements can be made, which ones would be cost effective and how much of an improvement (by numbers) can be made. So I decided to spend way too much money that I dont have, and invest time i don't really have to help figure this out. And maybe I could have some fun with it and along the way make a few parts (like my valve cover project) to make the 235 in my 56 just a little different, and get to know people I have never met.

Well, I am happy to say, I have done all 3 so far!!! I believe the key to it is to let Scott do what he has to do. he is smart and will figure it out on his time. Once that is done we can go forward with the rest of it. For decades everyone knows that the cylinder head is the key to the 235 series engines. We just need some raw numbers to see what it really is, and then publish the info correctly.

You have probably already seen this article:

http://midstateantiquestockcarclub.com/stovebolts.html

Maybe another look at custom pistons may be worth it?

I don't know enough to comment one way or the other, just thought I'd throw this in the mix.

No I have not seen this - I'll look it over too!

I'd like to thank all for their praising of my abiities! I think this type of joint collaberation between fellow enthusiasts is what makes this forum(Inliners) stand out from all others I have tried to particpate in. You wouldn't believe the ridicule I have faced on other forums, because of my wanting to advance or blend early technology with new concepts and thoughts. I think that it will serve many different objectives. First, it will fastforward our efforts by using computer models and software, allowing us to more quickly and effeciently evaluate what we have done, where it would have taken those guys in the 50's, many months to achieve. We can try many different port shapes and contours and repositioning of material in the blink of an eye, and move on to something else more quickly if sufficient gains aren't found, while those guys in 1950 are still thinking and testing on just one subject. Secondly, I think there is much hidden potential in these heads that just hasn't been explored by using 21st century thinking or technology. There are many people who are more than capable to do this same thing I am doing, they just haven't either chosen to, or just aren't interested at all in these "old" engines. So that leaves the chore to the new generation of "pioneers" to take the reins,and use what means they have available to them and move forward. I think that we collectively as a group of serious enthusiasts,can look within ourselves at our own talents and abilities, and what we can contribute to these engines, and not have to depend on big industry to pick up where they fall short in products to us. "Necessity has always been the Mother of invention!" We can make or develop anything we need for these engines ourselves for the simple fact, that nobody knows what "we" want better than us....