Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Hybrid cylinder head!

"If I you can get a pair of really good PAIR of SBC heads for < 2K I can't see why we can't get a single head for that price."

Comparing limited production parts to GM copies isn't the same thing. If you look at the costs of the SB2 or SB2.2 heads and compare to the Kirby pieces it would be a "little" more fair.

CNC machined SB2 heads complete with intake manifold and valve covers will be about $11,000. A single NASCAR team engine shop will buy more pairs of SB2.2 heads than Mike Kirby can find buyers for his stuff. When you are doing limited runs of anything, it gets real time consuming. No assembly line. Each opperation is a new machining setup. I'm surprised that Mike would even consider doing another run. He might have kept himself busy with the last run, but I'm sure he didn't make money on them. If he had, he'd be anxious to do some more. He has probably spent sleepless nights thinking that he'd have made more money if he'd just been doing commercial valve jobs.

I have to agree with Twisted and efi-diy that getting a run of new aluminum heads made is not for anyone wanting to make money. There simply would not be enough volume. I know the Riley arguement has been brought up, but it is much easier to cast and machine than the late inline head. Also, for many Inliner's, partly out of necessity find their own way to do things and not spend the big bucks to get a job done.

There have been a lot of technological improvements in the ~45 years since the late motors were designed,but without going to a cross flow head, what will the average (not hardcore super funded racer) gain going to a new aluminum casting? Other than some weight savings and a cool factor for the few who will know the difference, will there be as significant advantage over a stock head that is done by a knowledgeable and talented engine builder?

i was just going to bring up the cross flow question, you kinda beat me to it. has anyone know why there was never a crossflow design instead of the duggan/deppe/sissel design? if a head is to be made why not engineer a better trap. would not a crossflow outperform , yes i understand it would not fit any stock parts. tom

there is a crossflow head. it is made from 2 merc.cruser 4 cyl. heads look in leo's book it fits the bolt pattern and the push rods are in the stock location.

those heads were also used in the pontiac iron duke. it was produced from 77-92?. it started as a head simular to ours with intake/ exhaust on one side, then in 1980 went to cross flow. they can be picked up cheap, but the factory ones were prone to cracking. the aftermarket heads were better. tom

A cross flow head would not necessarily be better.

Mike is close to 400 SCFM w/his head now.
The new ZO6 Corvette head CNC ported from the factory flows 360-380 CFM. 505 HP
I need to look that up again to make sure on the Z06 heads.
Now these heads has GM engineers & designers all working together to put out the best head possible.
Think about how much money & time spent to get these flow numbers.
TWO cents......

If we go to a new design, that means new molds.

It's going to be faster/cheper to upgrade the ones he has now.

The question still remains: Can/will he run the 20 heads for that much ($100,000) next quarter??

Ya'll might wish to poke your nose in over on fordsix.com and find a user by the name AZCOUPE.

They've recently had someone cast aluminum heads for the small ford six and plan to cast a few for the 300.

If anything, he'd give you a real world idea of what to expect/ potentially give you another option.

Well,
if he can make heads for a Chevy, I hope he can get them to flow good, because those aluminum heads he makes now for the Fords do not flow too well.

I think the main reason(they do not flow well) is because he made them to fit stock headers,so people do not need to make custom headers & so on.

Gentlemen;

Mr. Kirby has spent thousands of dollars/hours and several years making one that works well, but there's NO demand.

This means; NO customers.

The SBC folks have the customers & thats why there's are being made etc.

Hank

Thats a new one on me, they seem to have developed interest. I was thinking more in terms of these chevy folks getting their hands on a proven design..then..well..see where Im going...

JHM

Fully understand, theres no real market for the aluminum ford heads either, especially the 240/300. So, it might be interesting to find out why this guy is still willing to persue it...maybe the key is in the company doing the casting...who knows


Personally, I think cutting up existing SB heads is ideal, if you can find someone that can weld and find one that aligns without too much drama.

Something interesting, a guy over on the other forum, found out that LS1 heads actually align real nice on the ford 240/300 block, oddly enough. Does require intake, header of course but still, otherwise, most everything aligned great with minimal modification to the head...he actually sold it for a very reasonable price.


Is there a SB head that has decent bore spacing/ bolt/pushrod alignment for what you all are looking for?

They do flow a lot better than the stock cast iron head, so don't get me wrong.

But comparing it to Mike Kirbys cylinder head, it does not flow well.

I think another reason they cannot flow well on there smaller Ford six cylinders is because there bore is smaller than the Chevy's?
So it forces you to use smaller valves.

But yes, it seems people are interested in that cylinder head.
Look @ the smaller 6 cyl. Ford stock cast iron integral intake,, pathetic.
So anything should be better that the original design.
I forgot how much is the guy asking for their 6 cyl aluminum head?

If we could get an LS1 cylinder head to work that would be great, but I believe the head bolt spacing if off.
Those LS1 heads flow great!!! esp. the LS6 Zo6 Heads!

O.K. here comes a maybe strange idea.

Whish List:

1. Crossflow 12 port
2. maybe Hemi chambers (if we find a solution for Valvetrain geometry)
3. bolt on
4. cheap and aviable aftermarket valve train/roller rocker/intake/exhaust headers
5. cool vintage (at least retro) look
6. flow
7. cheap as any good V8 aftermarket head lets say max $800

Is that possible?

Yeah sure! dream on Frank

Now here comes the real strange idea:

I talked to some casting companys and thay say that the internal passages in the head makes both - the mold and the casting so expensive.

Who says that a head has to be a one piece design?

Think of cutting a head horizontaly like an hot dog bun. What you get is 2 relative simple cast pieces. That way one can make an even more sophisticated design. Having acsess to the internal water/intake/exhaust passages would be also great.

Best of all, it can be done on a CNC machine from an aluminum block. So we can skip the casting fuzz completley.

What do ya think?

Frank

Hank

I agree. I think the ford head was done, as more of a "hot street" design, with room to grow. I do understand what your saying.


Frank


Thats definitely an original idea.

Okay; If were going back to "square one", then it should be OHC as well, like the Pontiac 6.

How close is it to a 250/292 block?? We all know It's similar.

Finding someone to spend several hundred hours FREE is the problem. Plus the 'out of pocket' expenses needed & the time (a couple of years) too.

There's NO CHANCE till the $100k is in escrow.

It's all ecconomics. You can take your $5,000 (cost of head) and buy a fair used car, clean it up and re-sell the same year and make a grand, perhaps more (5=6).

That same 5k would sit in escrow for at least 3 @ 4%. You do the math.......

This is why Wayne MFG and Mr. Kirby are 'burned out' on it all. The Ford guy just hasn't reached that point yet.

The Last Time i'm going say this. The V8 head & L6 Block. The Block NEEDs to be Plugged and ReDrilled
And different Head gasket is in order as well. NEW
Fabed lifter cover Plates. Custom Headers a
Intake. Or a adaptor Plate made at the very Least.
NOW The head Must be cut-up ReWelded and Pressure
Tested.And One other issue That to needs to be looked at is the Different Rocker arm ratio.
So more OR less this ALSO effects The Cam profiles.Especialy when it comes to turboing,
blowers, NOS.

And now your talking about a two peice head.
Who in the world you going to get to make a
GASKET for That?????????Let alone waste that Much FREE time?????? in the R&D. Then TRY and torque
THAT head down to Specks. GET REAL way to may
added Issues THERE personaly.

again PERSONALY I think you all would be one step ahead IF you just Coughed Up the BUCKs bought the
Prints/Castings and went from There?????????
But Your still not going to find the market.
cause Once Again IT'S a WILD HAIR. and once it's
Gone It's Gone till the Next.

Plus, whos to say its going to run that much better? Think of dallors per hoursepower gains! What else could be done for $5000, you can do alot of work to castiron head for that kind of money, plus the intakes and exhaust are all ready to go.
Just because it flows 400cfm doesn't mean its going to work with your engine. You need a head that is adaptable to differnet engine combinations, so starting with a smaller port and less air flow will let you increase the volume and flow as needed. Starting out at full race spec's is a sure way to slow down 90% of the cars you put them on!

That's right Joe. This is only for the 'high end' user.

We may have the 20 required here + 5 alternates. But; Do they ALL want to 'tie up' 5k for 3 Yr. etc.??

I have heard through the grapevine that Leo's engine has been having problems w/the deck surface.
Head, not sealing good to the deck, deck surface problems? Something to that nature?? Can't confirm that though.

With the head that Mike Kirby had(12 port aluminum) , you could have the ports small,(as thay come casted) install small valves,make different size chambers & so on, so ,if you want you could have the intake ports small cc volume(as they come casted) or opened up large.
If you wanted it to flow 200 CFM thats up to you.
250 CFM, 300CFM, & so on, it could be done with this head.

So it could be used on low performance applications or full on drag race applications.

Sure it could Hank.

Think what your saying though; You want to pay several hundred $ per hour to 'downgrade' a proven High Performance product.

John H. Meredith,,,,,,


That comment was directed to Joe H
Quote:::"Just because it flows 400cfm doesn't mean its going to work with your engine"

Just a comment to say that Mikes cylinder head is not just a full all out race head that only flows 400 CFM.
It could be used in different applications ,that's all.

The head does not start out flowing 400 CFM.
The ports are all small from the foundry.

Yes ,small enough for a street engine.

So basically what I am saying with just cleaning up from casting, it will not flow that great.

If you want his cylinder heads to flow close to 400 CFM ...you have to upgrade.
The starting point from as casted head is really small port volume. Small CFM numbers.
Does that make any sense?

Hank

John, didn't mean to bad mouth anyones heads, its great that you can start with a smaller head and make it what you want, its just we ran into this type of problem on our Pontiacs a few years back when the aftermarket aluminum heads came out. They started out way to big and really made a lot of stock type engines run really bad. The second optional came with smaller chambers and ports which worked much better for the average street racer type car. Now there are three or four different manufactorers of heads for the Pontiac, so the quality and performance has gone up. Joe

Interesting thought, the LS1 heads use 4 head bolt per cylinder like the inline. Wonder if anyone has a LS 1 head gasket around to check the bolt spacing ...

Need someone with pattern exerience to chime in here to enlighten us what it would take to add 2 clyinders into an existing casting box.....

Ok. There's no market enough to Kirby Alum Heads.
But there are still some people who want to buy it.
We all know that there's no more so much Chevy 6 engines arround the world, but my point is:

IF Kirby has already spend tons of dollars to do the alum head, he had all the matrices and stuff to do it, WHY the hell didn't he do some by special orders?

All of us know that these pieces are special.

What I can't undestand is: Why he simply stopped to do them?

His math doesn't make sense for me. For exemple: As I can see the are two people, me is one of, that want to buy the head. If he spend so much money to develop this, why do not take this cash back?

What kinda math patterns he follows?

One of Mikes concerns is that everyone might be going to retrofit the new Trailblazer engine into their hot rods.
A lot of people are thinking that it is the cats meow!
You can make simular HP & torque numbers w/our old inline sixes.
Douglas says those 250 & 292 Chevy's are making 800 HP for the street & up to close to 1300-1400 HP on race cars.
If you guys look at those Brazlian Chevy inline 250's & 292's.
Look at how much power they make w/the stock cast iron head.
They run small turbos there.
Master Power does not make big turbos like they do here in the US.

Another couple of cents thrown. :-)

As I understand it; the molds need uprgrading to make any new castings and that won't be done till the "money's in the bank" etc.

All this dailogue is just 'going in circles'.

Someone start a poll & see how many are ready to put the $5,000 "into the pot".

If 20+ stand up, then there's something to discuss.

the target price for the 240/300 head is expected to be under 2K and looks like it will be met (no real demand for this one either), maybe when you all get some hard numbers, you'll be able to buy two for 5K

The Ford head (or It's builder) has nothing to do with our possible dealings with Mike Kirby or a Chevrolet engine.

Why are you back here waisting our time??

john, i feel that inline300 is simply trying to show us that there are possibly other options out there. for instance edelbrock makes chevy (big and little) and many variations, olds, pontiac, ford and i'm sure many others. who is to say the maker of the ford head can't also make a chevy? tom

JHM


Its still apparent you can't see past your own nose. It has everything to do with it. So much for letting by gones, be by gones.


The company building the ford head is an independant company, as I would expect, I was simply showing you some parallels and try to offer everyone another possibility, and oddly, do the same thing you were trying to do, put everything into perspective.


I kept my conversations with you level headed and respectful...I appreciate your returning the favor.


Have a nice day.


T6

Im gonna throw this out there.

Im fully aware of the hair up your ass theory, I was just throwing this out there for the dreamers, who knows, maybe one possess a deep pocket. So don't feel I was trying to overshadow what you were saying, as I totally agree.

I wasn't going to step back into this topic BUT as I see it WE DON"T Need to get into a Bashing OR
Pi**ing contest. And IF it's going to turn into
THAT I WILL CLOSE This Topic Plain and simple!!!!

inline has his points, NORE did he say the guy casting is a Ford,mopar,OR a chevy guy. Just simply a guy casting the ford Head.
Maybe this guy isn't doing anything BUT casting.
Then this Leaves WHO????? is doing the machine work.
AND IF this Being the case MAYBE You all should look into it More!! then maybe approach Mike On the Machine work????

InStead of trying to bite one anothers Heads OFF
NO PUN
Inline300 can you get in touch(willing to) with who ever the guy is doing the ford head castings??
Email me if you can Thank you.

Does the $2K for the Ford head include machine work, valves etc or just a bare casting?

For The Most Part a Lump ported Is More Then what
Any daily driver will EVER need.
And some other food for thought. Put the head on
the motor Leave out The crank and Piston. and You
will see even another Issue WHICH is Our small Bore. For REAL hp a 4in bore is The Big gain Not just the head issues we have. BUT doing a 4in bore
On Our L6 chevy blocks is Not Very Good for a daily driver.

Larry,

Can a 4" bore be achieved in the 250 block with good wall rigidity for everyday use, without cementing the cooling passages, if the cylinder wall castings are well centered, not having drifted during the block casting process? One of the other Chevy boards mentioned a minumum wall thickness of 0.250" on the two thrust side of the bore. An ultrasonic meter could be used to selectively screen the best blocks for maximum wall thickness.

The 4" bore would also all the use of one of the Chevy 327 pistons (not the OEM STD) with a 6" connecting rod.

The biggest problem with the 4in bore is the block Running Hotter along with thin walls Just really doesn't make for a good daily driver.In my personal oppion. As to how much hotter it would run That i don't know. But as for testing the Block Yes that i'm sure could do to Hope for the best block to bore that much. which would let you
use maybe just about any v8 piston. But if i do remember right the 327 is the better choice.

I measured the head bolt spacing on LS1 heads as compared to our 194-292,& from cylinder to cylinder(front to back), there exact, bad news is they are about 1/2 inch off top of the block to the lower part of the block.

I think they (the LS1's) have the same bolt spacing as Small block Fords, & inline 300 six Fords.

again larry you have hit the nail on the head. the bore is too small. the only way to get around that is to install sleaves. but at a $100 a hole i dont see many lined up to do that.

now i will let the cat out of the bag. if you want a cheap 12 port head. you take a intreagel head mill the junk off of the side of it make a mounting plate and intake and exhaust headers. you can make a cliffered of offy work on it. tom langdon and i talked about it at carlisle.but that head would cost between 1000 to 1500.

The only real draw back i see to useing that head
is that they were more prone to cracking when over heated then The Non intreagel heads.
It is also to my understanding that,That Head
had a mild lump to the Port? I don't know for sure
Because i never cut one up. To see if this was true or not.
And the other question i guess would be Just how
small Or big are Those ports & how well would they even flow. compaired to a Non intreagel head
with a Lump port.
Also That head was ment for all the emission, and
Not for any type of performance.That 1000-1500
Is that for Out the door Bolt-on?? Or just to
have it cut up and ready for reworking??

the 1500 would be ready to bolt on. most of the cracking i have found in them would be removed with the milling. tom though they would flow good.and they would be a true 12 port.