Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines Flat tappet cm/lifter wear

I've been hearing more and more about people with early flat-tappet cam/lifter wear....related to the quality of the newer formulated oils. Recently, someone told me of an article in Hot Rod about this subject; I didn't see it.

I've got about 3,000 miles on the engine in my Model A. (with 4-banger Mercruiser w/solid lifter cam)

Does anyone know how prevalent this problem is.....or if it's true? I've used Valvoline 10W-30 for years and never had a cam, lifter, or bearing problem, but not I'm getting nervous. I do NOT want my cam, or lifters to go bad.

I would not worry too much about it.
You can always add an oil additive like Lucas oil treatment. & others.

MBHD

I spent a lot of money to ensure my engine was built right and used the best parts I could buy. But, now I hear the oils presently made aren't as good as days gone by. I know that oils from the '70s, '80s and '90s were probably best ever made, but now I hear this is no longer true.

I've never used any oil additives. In the past, I've had several cars that have given over 100,000 miles of faithful service, with 3,000 mile oil and filter changes. Three engines, a Mercedes 240D diesel, a '72 250 Chevy 6 on propane and a VW Rabbit, ran over 200,000 trouble-free miles with the same oil/filter program. (I traded the 240D in at 310,000 miles) I've always used one of three oils, Chevron and Chevron diesel, Valvolene, or Pennsoil.

Now, I'm told that most the oils have been reformulated, because some additives that prevented wear, but create pollution, have been removed.

Not having any experience with additives, I don't know the difference between the hype and truth of claims.

I'd welcome anyone's experience and solid proof about this subject.

I spent a lot of money to ensure my engine was built right and used the best parts I could buy. But, now I hear the oils presently made aren't as good as days gone by. I know that oils from the '70s, '80s and '90s were probably best ever made, but now I hear this is no longer true.

I've never used any oil additives. In the past, I've had several cars that have given over 100,000 miles of faithful service, with 3,000 mile oil and filter changes. Three engines, a Mercedes 240D diesel, a '72 250 Chevy 6 on propane and a VW Rabbit, ran over 200,000 trouble-free miles with the same oil/filter program. (I traded the 240D in at 310,000 miles) I've always used one of three oils, Chevron and Chevron diesel, Valvolene, or Pennsoil.

Now, I'm told that most the oils have been reformulated, because some additives that prevented wear, but create pollution, have been removed.

Not having any experience with additives, I don't know the difference between the hype and truth of claims.

I'd welcome anyone's experience and solid proof about this subject.

Gentlemen;

This has been debated here, quite a bit.

I know from experience that; there are several (grades) of oil products, especially with all the 'imports' in the country now. :p

The 'commercial grade' oil is best for (Hot Rod) engines. This is because; It's formulated for heavy duty usage and the "detergent action" lasts much longer.

Dello (SO-Chevron) and Rotella (Shell) are two that I know of. SAE 30 weight is perfered.

Multi-grade is for exterme/rapid tempature shifts and lack of proper maintance, from the (general) public. It was (originaly) developed by/for the Military in WWII because; they couldn't service the vehicles regulary etc. :rolleyes:

Also; most cam/lifter failures are from counterfiet (tiawang) parts and NOT our oil.

Happy trails.

PS: Hot Rod Magazine & 'the like' are entertainment publications (not Trade Journals) that sell products for their advertisers.

Dennis, I have read in trade publications that flat tappet (hyd.& solid) wear is mainly caused by the removal of zinc from the oils because it shortens the life of catalic converters and 02 sensors. Manufactures were behind this because of the warranty, this is also why they all went to roller cams in new cars. Not for less friction but because the cams were going flat.
Rotella was one of the last to retain zinc but not anymore, there is a code to look for I will try and find, and post it.
I can't count how many cams I have heard of going flat but it's a big problem.
I think if you want an hyd.lifter use a roller hyd. If you want a flat lifter use the ones with the small hole in the face I have very good luck with this style, the lifter rides on a cushion of oil pressure. But you still need to use ALL the proper break in procedures.
They say you can use GM (engine oil supplement) with your oil to replace the zinc.

Hi, Turbo-6,
I'd just LOVE to run a hydraulic roller cam in my inline six. Who makes one?

Thanks, Turbo

I'd like to see that data, if you can find it.

Just today, I was at the Nostalgic drags in Beaver Springs, Pa. I got to chatting with a fellow driving a nice W-30 Oldsmobile. He was telling me he drives his Olds on the street and races it too. Recently, he replaced a fairly low-mileage cam and lifters because he found two lobes were significantly worn.

He also has heard accounts of cam wear and the cause was because of 'some additive' no longer being put in modern oils. I assume that additive is what you spoke of.....zinc. If that's true, folks with older flat-tappet cams like mine, will need an additive with zinc in it.

I await your confirmation with the data if you can locate it.

Thanks again.

Dear Dennis;

Flat tappet lifters/cams wear faster that 'stock' because of the higher spring pressures and the way they (high lift) are ground. This is why the 'roller lifter/cam' was developed for racing.

The "flat tappet" lifter is actualy convex (new) flat (worn) and concave (junk). A 'junk' one will "eat" that cam lobe.

Dello oil is mostly run in (big rigs) with diesel engines, under extream conditions and just slightly more $ than 'consumer oils'.

Another thing is to; check the lifters regulary with a straight edge, which is how it was done in the 50s, long before government intervention.

Good luck.

I authored an article in the current issue of Vintage Truck Magazine on this very topic. I spent a lot of time reseaching this and have quite a bit of technical data, interviews, and information to back up my article and I'm happy to share it with anyone who is interested.

In a nutshell, emmissions requirements have forced reductions of some key ingredients in gasoline engine oils that are vital to the life of flat tappet motors. There continues to be debate, both from viewpoints and from scientific fact, as to whether those reduced bi-metallic lubricant compounds will cause excessive wear in a broken-in engine as much as in a new rebuild. Spring pressures have something to do with it, but absolutely in no way are the exclusively the cause and problem so realize that there are many factors in play on this topic and facts are few and opinions are many.

I have plenty of facts from my research which includes the latest release of a technical bulletin from AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilder's Association) on this topic.

Those advocating the use Delo, DelVac, and Rotella are in the right direction in MY OPINION, and factually, those diesel formulated engine oils available today contain zinc and phosphate levels that compare equally to the levels found gasoline engine oils 20 years ago.

GM has discontinued the production of and offering of their P/N 1052367, EOS - Engine Oil Supplement, which is recommended by the AERA. I have cleaned out the local GM dealer inventory in my town and have enough to last me until I'm done playing with inline engines I think.

On the future front, the 10 PPM particulate filter and new '07 ultra-low sulfur diesel fuels are spiralling us down into the abyss with these important additives in diesel engine oils and I fear that sooner, rather than later, our only remaining compliant (for what WE need) oils will not be available. I'm hoarding oils right now as I think this reduction is coming this year but the oil companies that I've contacted remain very tight lipped about their plans, their formulas, and the future as it relates to flat tappet engines.

Do your homework on this topic folks, it may cost you a cam and lifters which are hard to replace if you don't.

Thanks for your responses, fellas. I called the local Chevy dealer and they have EOS. I'm going to get a case, if they'll let me have it tomorrow.

Rob, just today, I was told by an engineer about the stuff. A taxi operator, who has a a couple of '97 Chevy Impalas, one with over 196,000 miles on it, said he's been using it, too. Don't know if either engine has roller lifters in 'em, but neither has ever had engine trouble.

Dear Rob;

When doing your research, did you look into what oils the aircraft industry is using??

The 'horzontal-opposed' air cooled engines (like VW/Porsche) must require a 'heavy duty' oil and are exempt from the SMOG nonsense.

What about adding STP and changing more often??

Happy trails.

I did not inquire nor gather any information on aircraft engine oils.

I did get some interesting data from a local engine rebuilder who cited a report he had on NYC taxi cab engines; they tracked the lifespan of taxis which started with and stayed with one brand and type of oil and compared that against the "what's the cheapest oil you have" engines. The engines which jumped around amongst brands showed more than twice the wear that the engines which stuck with one oil showed. This makes sense as we are talking about lubricant chemistry here and each manufacturer has a different chemical formula. While they might be trying to accomplish the same thing, they each take a little different approach to getting there and it would lead you to conclude that mixing brands adversely affects engine wear.

The EOS component along with diesel engine oil is what I decided to run in all my flat tappet motors starting last year. Nothing's died yet and I have one newly rebuilt 302 with 5k on it now and so far so good.

Here\'s a freebie for anyone who does not get the magazine and is interested.

R;

Good point!!

I 'preached' that when I managed Service Stations in the 50s & owned one in the 60s. Customers that wanted a special oil; I sold them @ 'case lot' and got the service labor.

Next time I'm at the Airport I'll ask around & see. There is an answer to the oil issue.

Many of the failures were from 'sub-standard' lifers also and that is part of the equation here too.

Probably the answer is a combination of both; A) finding an aircraft or industrial/commercial oil and B) getting someone to Mfg. lifters with a harder/more durable face here in the USA.

Perhaps there's a 'harding process' that could developed also.

Happy trails.

OK Rob, time to spill: what brand, and weight oil do you use along with the EOS?

The link for the article in the August 2006 issue of Hot Rod Magazine concerning the reduction of the proven antiwear additive zinc dialky dithiophosphate (ZDDP or ZDTP) in engine oils follows:

http://www.oldgmctrucks.com/photos/FlatTappetCamTech.htm

An article concerning new diesel engine oils:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/arti...%20and%20Trends

The modern diesel oils with optimum levels of ZDDP are rated "CI-4" or "CI-4 Plus". The recently distributed new diesel oils with lower ZDDP levels are designated with the new "CJ-4" rating.

Here is a link to a engineers point of view on oil and the use of it.

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

It now sounds like race oil or motorcycle oil is the way to go. Joe

Mr. Winter;

Do you know the rating for the Dello 400 oil??

Thanks.

John,

Chevron will continue to produce both the CI-4 Plus and the CJ-4 formulations. Hopefully retailers are aware of the need for both formulations, or we need to make them and other home mechanics aware.

The sales literature and product data sheets for the new CJ-4 diesel engine oil formulations are very slickly written. But an informed person can read between the lines. They have to meet government guidelines for new diesel engine oil emission standards, and sell well among their competitors (Chevron, Shell, etc), so lubrication manufacturers are caught in the middle.

ZDP has been the icon anti-wear additive for engine and industrial oils for a long time, with proven results.

Excellent article on engine oils Joe H.

W;

Thanks, I figures they would. It's been a "standard" in the industry for years. I sold hundreds of cases (24/1) when I was in the business. Today it comes 4 (1 Gal.) plastic bottles.

Anyone know how 'case lots' went from 6 to 4 gallons??

I guess our oil too; is now a victim of the "SMOG lie". Our children/grandchildren will really wonder how we were duped on such a large scale.

Happy trails to all.

Winter, my dad found this somewhere. Its getting hard to know who to believe, so have more information sure can't hurt. I like the question and answer section, he seems to know quite abit about what he is saying. Joe

This has been a VERY informative topic, and thanks to all you guys who posted some very valuable info for the rest of us. I only have one question that no one seems to have mentions so far, and that is: what about the various synthetic lubricants now available, such as Amzoil, etc., etc.? Has anyone done any studies on wear resistance using these types of lubricants, or are they mentioned as part of a study on petroleum oils?

Controling (normal) wear on engine parts requires maintaince (regularly) and the use of the same/proper grade of oil each time etc.

With Hot Rod (type) engines, It's a little different. These are built for extra performance, "above & beyond" what they were designed for originaly and with that, comes extra/faster wear on everything. Sometimes to the point of "self destruction".

Professional Drag Racers often carry 2 (or more) extra engines because of this.

High performance cams, used on the streets require extra maintaince, adjustments and 'heavy duty' oil.

This "idea" (some may have) that you can operate a 'hi pro' engine like a stock one, doesn't work at all. There two different things.

In the 50-60s we usually changed our lifters around 8,000 miles (to save the cam) and oil at 1,000 miles.

The additives you mention may/may not have some benefit, but most fleet studies prove that brand/type don't matter as much as regularity of oil changes.

Until there's a "fleet study" by the Phone Co. or a Taxi service/truck maintaince business, additives are just a gimic for 'normal' highway operations.

Hot Rods are a mechanical 'experiment' and there's no guarantee on anything.

Happy trails.

Shucks John, I thought the fun was guaranteed! S

OK, since if you have a cam with significantly more lift than a stock chevy six cam and stronger valve springs there seems to be a good chance of the lifters and/or cam lobes going bad with present oils, one answer seems to be the use of diesel engine oil, which I'm all for. However, I've noticed recently going through cam companies catalogs and websites that there are now lifters that deliver extra oil to the cam lobes. Has anyone out there tried them? Personally, I like the idea of a hydraulic roller cam for an inline six, but I've looked long and hard for anyone who makes a cam like that, and so far, I've found nothing along that line. Plenty of them for V8's, but nothing for inlines. I'm thinking about taking a flat tappet cam and having it reground with the lobes perpendicular to the cam axis (rather than tapered as a flat tappet cam lobe normally is) and seeing if I can use hydraulic roller lifters from a V8 cam kit. If it's possible to use roller lifters with a tie bar to keep them aligned, it might work. IF there's room to fit them into the lifter galleys in the block. Just one of my many random thoughts. Feel free to comment..........or tell me why it won't work. I'm sure someone else has to have thought of this, but I've never heard of anyone talking about it.