Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines Good News / Bad News

Yeah ive never heard of someone putting hardened seats on the intake valves before. Don't see a need on those they are not exposed to the same heat/gasses/combustion as an exhaust valve. Also yes a valve seat may fall out but HONESTLY out of the # is hardened seats install how many have fallen out?

so i see you know it alls have never seen an intake seat beat out. may be if you bough the machinery and worked on heads for a few years and learned something you would know what you are talking about.

hey i don't need this B.S. or this club if this is all they do ask for advice then hack at it if it is not what they want to here.

Bob no one is saying you are wrong. No one is attacking you or your Experience so you need to stop taking it as that.

Everyone is free to express their own opinion. You gave yours and others have given theirs. You have had 25 years of experience and my machinist and close friend has at least that many years of rebuilding heads and engines and he swears by Hardened seats in the exhaust side, and has never once had one drop out.

We all appreciate your input and any knowledge you can share with us all but don't get upset if someone disagrees or has a different point of view.

If you trust your machinist in his work and he says you are not in need of them then don't bother. In my case i had a few that were going to have to be replaced regardless so I decided to have all my exhaust seats done. Its ultimately up to you if you are still unsure it doesn't hurt to take it to another reputable shop in the area and see what they say.

This is unfortunately one of those things that goes both ways you see varying reports from many sources that say one or the other.

I have the answer !!! if you are going to replace the intake seats, go ahead and put in 1.94 valves (350 chevy valves) and being you are doing the exhaust seats go ahead and use 1.60 valves. Now you have all new seats,valves,and a head that will breath a little better. YOU are happy, I am happy that you are happy,everbody is happy,this DEAD HORSE is happy we are finished beating him to death...SCRAP

Bob;

The 'kids' today believe everything they read or hear from their 'peers' & never people who have done it for years and "know the ropes".

Hard seats are ONLY needed if:

1) Your running a catilic converter.

2) Your running a commercial vehicle.

3) Your building a Hot Rod engine for racing.

A non-commercial, non-smog (used engine) in a passenger car doesn't need them.

This is the "general rule" for most and 'dreaming up' exceptions can't change it.

If you want to spend the money anyway, or call it "preventive maintaince" okay, but there still NOT needed. Engines rebuilt for antique vehicles rarely go 30,000 miles more; as their just driven to shows and other events and never abused.

Machine Shops put them in because they assume your going to run a 'Cat'.

Now; If your head is 'beat up' so bad that it takes one to fix a cylinder, that's the one you put it in is all. You DON'T need 6 or 12 new ones.

Get your car going & see if you like it etc. If you do; then build a custom engine for it, with ALL the "bells & whistles" you like from the ground up.

after all this reading,,, i have just 1 question., i have a 1976 pontiac ventura, came with 250 with integral head, has factory cat but the origional head had no hardened seats.... doesnt that contradict what u said here???
also, the origional motor when i pulled it had 135,000+ on it, and was origionally owned by an older lady who from what i found out did not take very good care of the car..had 3 cracked seats (got it hot i figured), and the seats were beat pretty bad. it is also an unleaded car. i trashed the head, bought a entire engine out of a 72 nova, built the head (without hardened seats) and rebuilt the origional shortblock.(took .040 just to clean up!!!) under the advise of my dad, i didnt go with hardened seats, or molly rings, and with regular maitenance, the motor didnt last. seats were sunk,(no i didnt get it hot, ran 180* thermostat) and the rings gone. bought a head of ebay during that time, had it built with hardened seats, and put in molly rings., oil is still pretty clean at oil change time, and not a drop of oil has leaked or burned out of this engine.. i learned the hard way, and others have learned things differently than others., it it works for u, great, but dont preach that what ur saying is fact, because i can obviously prove otherwise.. great site, and i love my inline!!! happy holidays all

Dear Mr. Smith;

No, not at all.

The MFG; GM & others didn't go with the hardned seats till they saw what the added heat (from the Cat.) was causing. It kills the guide then the seat.

Please read the posts again.

Hard seats ARE used with one.

Come on guys we don't need a ****ing match.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion here.

I want to get 200,000 miles from this build-up "with all the bells and whisles".
The van has a "cat" on it and it stays.

Just trying to get it right so I don't have to pull the motor a few miles down the road.
It ain't easy getting the motor in and out of a van,not much room to play.

I have been running 230's and 250's for many years
with no real valve seat trouble, but early Nova's are fairly light and I tune a little on the rich side.
I was wondering if lead was removed from fuel before or after the catalytic coverters came on the scene, or did it happen at the same time?? (I got my license and my 1st Chevy II in 1988)

Dan

Catalytic Converters were introduced in 1975, but lead production in ethanol,which began just after WWI,was allowed to continue into the mid to late 80's particularly by E.I.duPont, so as not to adversely effect the economy. Most of it, as is today was used in other counties. So yes, lead removal from "gas" and the cat came along about the same time.

Drew is right, by the mid 80's leaded gas was hard to come by at service stations in most major metropolitan areas. However, the total ban on leaded gas didn't acutally take place until 1996:
EPA Lead Ban

But this ban only applies to pumps providing 'automotive' fuels. It is still legal to this day to produce leaded gas for use in aircraft, race cars and in marine engines. For example, VP's C series fuels are all leaded:
VP Racing Fuels

and legal under the EPA 211n restricted use clause:
"Section 211(n) bans the use of gasoline containing lead or lead
additives for use as a motor vehicle fuel but does not restrict other
potential uses of gasoline containing lead or lead additives. The
definition of motor vehicle is limited to self-propelled vehicles
designed for transporting persons or property on a street or highway.
42 U.S.C. 7550(2). The regulations of 40 CFR Part 80, which are amended
by this rule, apply only to fuel that is sold for use in motor
vehicles. See 40 CFR 80.2(c). The petroleum industry may continue to
make and market gasoline produced with lead additives for all remaining
uses, including use as fuel in aircraft, racing cars, and nonroad
engines such as farm equipment engines and marine engines, to the
extent otherwise allowed by law."

Many guys carried plastic adapters to neck down the larger diameter leaded pump nozzle to fit into the smaller unleaded restrictor filler necks. This was great in places where there were no tail pipe tests, cause one could run cheaper 'Regular' gas. But the lead in the gas ruined the catalyst in the Converter - so as soon as the car found it's way into a metro area where tail pipe tests where enforced, the owner faced an expensive cat replacement. A real concern back then when buying a used car.

regards,
stock49

Does most avation fuel have lead? There is a small air field (Cable airport) near me that sells 100 octane right off the truck, they won't pump it into your car, but they are happy to sell it if you bring your own jug.

Dear Dan;

I believe so.

The aircraft industry has escaped the wrath of the EPA for years, because the FAA 'said so' and they have more 'juice' in Congress.

The "horizontal opposed" engine used in most small planes (Same as VW/Porsch & BMW bikes) was legislated out of the USA by Congress because it passed all the EPAs regulations W/O any 'smog' equipment.

Go figure.

FYI: Avation fuel commonly called AV-Gas has been used by Hot Roders for decades. "Try it you'll like it".......

100 LOW Lead Avgas has more lead in it than any automobile gas has ever had.

It is not a performance fuel.
I filled up a tank full of 100 LL Avgas into my 65 Malibu (got it free) that had 8.75 to 1 compression & it slowed my car down.

If you are going to use it, mix it w/your unleaded premium fuel.
I would not suggest you running it straight.
"Two cents"

MBHD

Did you guys check out that timeline on lead I posted earlier in this thread? We could've had a better solution 80 years ago. Once again, the golden rule applied: "He who has the gold makes the rules".

Dear Martin;

Sad but true.

Check the link under the (engines) title fuel additives just posted.

Happy trails.

No doubt that timeline is criminal strummin67 . . .

But so much comes down to ignorance. They used to use lead pipe for drinking water in the 1800s! The informed new it was no good for humans but no one bothered to remind the masses, and since lead pipe was easy to make, install and therefore the cheapest they just kept selling it and people kept buying it.

And sometimes it seems like a pendulum swinging from informed back to ignorant. When lead pipe was replaced with iron and galvi because it was 'safe' everyone seemed to forget about lead. When copper tube started to replace threaded pipe everyone seemed to forget that solder contained lead! And once again we had lead in drinking water because sweated copper was cheaper then fitted pipe . . . Now we have lead free alloys for solder - but why didn't we from the get go? Cause it was cheaper to use what was at hand.

In the end it comes down to consumers becoming informed on their own because we cannot not expect business to educate . . . they have no track record for it.

But I am way off topic here . . . this ain't Bench Racing . . .

Yep Stock49,

Similar to amalgam dental fillings for our teeth, which contain mercury. Dentist put it in our mouths, yet schools are on alert if someone breaks a mercury thermometer.

"Amalgam (at mixing) typically contains approximately 50% metallic Hg, 35% silver, 9% tin, 6% copper, and a trace of zinc."

John, I didn't know you could still get lead additves. I have to say in my own personal experience I have not had any problems running lead era cars and trucks with out lead.

M;

Neither have I, or anyone I've known.

That's what makes this hard seat business so stupid. It's the forced usage of the catilic converter (heat) that causes the damage.

Here is California the 'off road' places sell a "by pass" device that the hot Roders all use. They just replace their (unused) Cat. for the smog test & then go back.

On your adverage Jap car/truck it gives you 5-8 MPG improvement. So; If the Cat. helped the environment that wouldn't happen. The Cat. only helps remove HC/CO @ idle and engines weren't made to just idle.

If our 'public transportation' systems worked properly there wouldn't be highways turned into parking lots causing more smog.

Here the lead additive is called "octane booster" I think.

John, You need to start reading up on things before posting such B.S. Chemistry and physics would be a good start...

The current 3 ways catalytic converters reduce unburned hydrocarbons - HC (unburned fuel), carbon monoxide - CO (lack of sufficient oxygen at the fuel molecule burning burning), and oxides of notrogen - NOx (combination of nitrogen and oxygen from the inlet air when exposed to high combustion temperatures).


http://www.catalyticconverter.org/index.htm

http://www.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter.htm (use table of contents at bottom of page)

Gentlemen;

The vehicle that burns the least fuel, pollutes the least!!

You can quote all the chemistry & physics you like; but that's the "bottom line."

All the rest is just dialogue.

No, John that is not necessarily correct. Again, you need to research the this so that you have a better understanding.

I don't have a copy of my masters thesis handy but I do recall that there is a compromise between HC/ CO and NOx (NO and NO2) levels; that compromise is operating at stochiometric fuel/ air ratio. You could operate lean to improve fuel economy but this will worsen NOx production. So, we burn a little more fuel to ensure efficient operation of the three way catalytic convertor.

Carbon dioxide, C02, is directly related to the amount of fuel burned. It is also the gas animals exhale when breathing, and the main "greenhouse gas".

The other emissions are much more complicated.

I believe emission requirements are on a mg/mile basis, and not on a mg/gallon basis. Will verify later.

I have to go now till after Christmas. Ya'll have a safety and Merry Christmas.

Winter, you are mostly correct regarding the amalgam fillings. The formulation you gave is for one of the more common amalgams sold, but there are several varieties of dental amalgam. This is a very controversial topic in dentistry right now. Current thought says it may be more dangerous for the dentist that puts it in than the patient that walks around with it.

Stock49 - many business are very good at education - its amazing that "cheap" usually outweighs "good" in the free market place. Then consumers blame the business for their bad choices they knowingly made Its the deceptive business I have a grudge against.

Dear 6inarow,
I am going to need to agree with Stock49 concerning consumer education. I think the free market is the best way to go, but the less educated you are, the more dangerous it can be. (I too am off topic)

Dan

Dear Jayson;

I'm sure your correct.

My point is this; If the fuel isn't burnt in the first palce, the polluants arn't in the environment.

In 1960 the "automotive community" told everyone how to combat SMOG. They were ALL ignored by those with a vested interest in seeing the automobile "controlled".

The catalitic converter was 'sold' to Congress using (only) HC/CO 'numbers' from carbuerated engines at idle.

Since then; there have been so many lies & half truths piled on top of each other, that the facts are 'long gone'.

Recently the California Legislature passed a bill requiring a Cat on lawnmowers at a projected cost of $400 per.

This will never become Law, but you see my position.

At most of the meetings/hearings I attended (throughout the 60s) the ONLY intellegent thing said was: The pledge of alligence.!!

FUBAR

1990 Tier 1 exhaust emissions standards for 1998 - 2003 gasoline passenger cars and light light-duty trucks are as follows (first 50,000 miles/5 years):

HC: 0.25 grams/mile
C0: 3.4 grams/mile
NOx: 0.4 grams/mile

The Tier 2 regulations are being phased in from 2004 to 2009. They are much more complicated.

i think most of you guy's are far off topic. in the original post, he refered to his engine and seat problems. he is also going to use a turbo in the future. hardened seats are good insurance as well as good valves and good guides. if you want to start your own topics do it. the mentality of my way or the highway is fubar as john states. where does all the finger pointing get you or us as a organization? think about it. tom

Good point Tom.

Back to 'bench racing' for the Big Brothers SMOG. :p