Inliners International Forums General Discussion Drive Train Hydramatic - Can't Get Separated from 302?

Hi all,

Potentially about to show my ignorance about some of the older engines and transmissions but I have a GMC 302 that's bolted to a Hydramatic. We just removed it from our family's old motor home as a first step to getting that coach back in action and I've got an issue...

I intended to take the engine and trans out in separately but it would not come apart so we ended up with the whole package on the hoist.

I've removed the bellhousing bolts. During the removal process we had as much as 1/2 inch of separation at the housing and I could see that the "torque converter" (I understand they're not technically a torque converter with the hydramatic but it's what I think of it as) had come out slightly from the transmission, there was clean metal visible on the nose of the converter. That's as far as we managed though...

Normally I would have expected that the converter needed to be unbolted from the flexplate but the way the housing is on the transmission there is no way to do this that I could see. It appears part of the trans housing is on the engine side of the flexplate, indicating to me that the converter needed to come out of the transmission first.

The engine and trans are both absurdly heavy so it could just be that they're binding on eachother and not releasing but if that's not the case, am I missing something silly?

The transmission is in "park" or rather reverse since they don't have a park per-say.

Apologies in advance if my explanation is hard to follow, please let me know and I'll try to clarify what I'm saying and post different pictures.

Thanks for any help you can offer!

hotrod

I have one if these that I haven't taken apart because the engine is frozen and that makes it a lot tougher.

I have only separated one if these from an engine. It was a 331 Caddy. I think I did it the right way. I removed all the little bolts from around the converter. Lots of fluid in there! The front piece was bolted to the crank like a flywheel or flex plate. I have pictures but can't find them. Would be a pain to put back together.

The problem with my frozen 302 is I can't turn the engine to get to all the bolts. I may have to cut some rods and pull the crank with the trans.

A video.

Fascinating... I started trying to remove those bolts, there are a ton of them, but then noticed what seemed like part of the bellhousing on the other side (engine side) of that whole assembly so it didn't seem like if I got them removed it would help any...

I will take another look now that it's out, maybe that bit of bellhousing does come off and I just wasn't seeing it.

The part that is tripping me up is that I had about 1/2 and inch of daylight all the way around the bellhousing, minus the alignment pins, but it wouldn't budge... Really felt like something was holding the converter (whatever it's called) on the input shaft...

If I can get it off without having to unbolt the flexplate I will tell you how I did it so hopefully the seized engine stops being the roadblock.

Here is what I"m referring to:

Okay so I'm just now watching the video you linked and that might be the missing key... Not looking forward to undoing all those bolts but I'm going to give that another look.

Absolutely shocked that this might be the way to get them separated and that I didn't notice a different way to get that second piece of housing apart.

That said, I'm still not sure I understand how that housing comes off but I'm going to give it a shot in the next day or so.

Crazy to think that every automatic I've worked on uses 3 or 4 bolts for the torque converter and these things used a whole hardware store's worth...

I have never worked on or used one of these. Resealing it would worry me. I don't know if they were later converted to a modern torque converter. They were tough transmissions when set up right and did a lot of work behind 302 & 270 GMCs.

Keep us up on your progress.

Well you rock, and unfortunately this won't help your situation but the million bolts on the "torque converter" were the key...

I have no idea what you're going to need to do short of dropping the crank out of the 302 or taking a torch to the back of it to get the trans separated.

For me, a quick trip to harbor freight for a knuckle for my impact and boom, apart. Not nearly as much fluid in there as there should have been, probably owing to the absolute crime scene of an oil spill on the driveway from the back of the trans dipping down during removal. I'm going to need to power wash like crazy to make this driveway normal again...

If the goal for the MH wasn't to be something we can take wherever we want and find parts when we break down maybe it would have a home in there still but it's just too obscure and I cant imagine finding someone that can work on it or get replacement parts, just like the 302... Glad it's finally apart and I'm going to get stuff cleaned up enough to get casting numbers and then list it for sale in the marketplace here and a few other places.

FYI, engine runs and transmission works so spread the word.

Glad it helped. So you are replacing the 302 as well?
I understand driving things you can get parts for. My son & I made several round trips to Texas during his college years in his '54 Studebaker station wagon. Biggest problems were an overdrive solenoid and losing the supercharger. I did a 4000 mile week in my '53 pickup with a GMC 270 with no issues. Here to Ventura CA- Austin TX-Ventura-& back here.I do carry parts that I know I won't find that I could replace on the side of the road. ( water pump, starter, distributer) Under the seat is packed!

Yeah, all the mechanical running gear needs a replacement at this point. If we were keeping the 302 we'd still need to do some work to it after all these years and it just doesn't have the power or parts availability.

We've got big goals of getting it to Alaska, which will be it's 49th state and sourcing parts for stuff that's still on the road is likely to help that. Fuel economy is a big consideration too to make driving it around more wallet friendly.

You're smart to carry spares, even if it was something less old school! Something always fails... Had a water pump pulley on the small block in my Nova explode while driving to reno a few years ago. Never thought "oh, I should pack a spare water pump pulley" but there I was. Ended up with a billet one way too nice for the car because no one stocks pulleys for short water pump small blocks except the local speed shop lol...

Lost the belt too, you should have seen the person working at the auto parts store trying and help me figure out the belt. There's a system for the naming that I just couldn't remember and clearly their training didn't help. They were just grabbing everything and anything they could. I'd get handed a belt that was 8 inches long, and then one that was 30. No rhyme or reason for it. What a day... Finally got the right one and had a dozen wrong belts to return to the store... haha good times.

You got it! I was a counterman for several years. Belt sizes are coded in the part number. The old books have the code. Do the computers? It is a shame that parts people today can't pay the rent with their jobs. Why bother to learn the trade? Today's parts houses just skim the cream off the top of the market and don't care about the rest. Floor space & shelf space have a $$$ value. If it doesn't move fast enough it isn't stocked.

As far as the person trying to help, none of them were alive when cars had points, carbs, generators, or mechanical fuel pumps. You are the odd ball not them. Arm yourself with relevant information that will make their search easier or just accept what you get.

You're not wrong! Especially with that last paragraph. In the moment and stress of trying to get back on the road I was absolutely kicking myself for 1. not keeping a record of the belt size I had, and 2. not taking the time to read up on the naming scheme for the belts.

I felt bad for the person, they were so willing to help but it was so clear that if it can't get looked up in the computer we were probably not going to have a good time and I was unfortunately zero help in that situation.

On a related but different note, recently need to buy some fuel hose, just basic, low pressure stuff. Asked for 6 feet I think, got a blank stare and a wave to come behind the counter and pick what I needed. Got it and watched as he tried to "measure" it with no measuring device until I pointed out the 1 foot increment marks on the shelf by the hoses. He sure thought that was a clever thing and I realized I might be the first person he's ever had come in to buy a length of hose. Very weird thing to realize and kind of made me feel like a dinosaur...

When my son took his '54 Studebaker to Texas for college in 2001 there was a parts list in the glove box. Belts & hoses by Gates #s and size. Ignition by Delco & Standard #s. I was a counterman at CarQuest at the time and Studebaker was almost nonexistent in the computer & had vanished from the catalogs. Many parts were still on the shelf because of other applications. An example of you had a Prestolite (Autolite) distributer parts are the same as the same era MOPAR mostly. If you have a Delco its is GM mostly Chevy, Stude used both. Any way he had quite a list. I also got to know the guys at the CarQuest in Lubbock. We got to know the president of the local Studebaker Driver's Club who took Jake under his wing and was very good to him for the years he was there. Like hauling him to Clovis, New Mexico to pick up a transmission. Borg Warner T86s don't handle supercharged 289 Stude v8s well as Jake demonstrated a few times, but the OD feature is a lifesaver on the highway.

By the time I quit my part time job at O'Reilly there was little left on the shelf I needed a discount for and the frustration & pay wasn't worth being there. My younger son until a month or so ago was the commercial parts man for an O'Reilly in Reno. He could find anything that was anywhere for sale but he couldn't afford a life. We relied on him to find what we needed and still do even though he works fir his brother now. He still has connections.

O'Reilly grew too fast when they bought CSK ( Checker, Shucks, Kragen) who had bought up lots of other parts houses. They had to use the management from the failing places they bought and it hurt. They do have a group back in Missouri that helps stores find things but I don't think the folks at our local stores know that. I know they are not taught to use the books because people got upset with me when I used them, but I found the part. I still use some of my old CarQuest books. The change in parts stores and the disappearance of wrecking yards has taken a lot of fun out of what we do. Old age is not a plus either, but there is some left!

Never realized that O'Reilly bought up those other stores. They have still been my best bet for finding folks who know what they're doing around here these days. I seldom have a simple "look up the make and model" part that I'm after but no mater what I'm looking for the ones here seem to have the folks that can at least look up part numbers and find it in the back no sweat.

Side note. Cleaned some grime off the transmission to get some pictures to be ready to sell it and noticed a part of the casting on the "bellhousing" indicating that both halves need to stay together and be installed together (the upper and lower parts that I was initially confused over before you pointed out that the 30 bolts on the converter needed to come out). Thought that was interesting, I suppose that makes sense if they were machined as a set but I wonder if that was the same for all or something unique to the military applications like the motor / trans I just removed...

Anyway, last parts store quip I'll share since I feel like I've taken this very simple thread way off topic... My first trip to a "proper" parts store, the kind with big and little boxes stacked to the roof and a guy behind the counter who know what every single one was for was with my grand father. We were getting a 66 Nova, car I still have, back on the road and needed wheel cylinder rebuild kits for all 4 corners. I still cannot express how amazed I was that we could bring the old one it, tell the gentleman a few words about what it was for, and that he could grab a couple boxes and be right. I was astounded... Things I never thought I'd miss.

Yes, I had forgotten that those are machined as a pair. I'm sure many were mismatched.

When I was a kid my dad was a mechanic. He was also a machinist and was allowed to use the machine shop at a couple of the bigger parts houses in Amarillo. I often went with him. Those guys knew their stuff. When I was a counterman for several years I got to work with one of those old time lifelong parts guys. He taught me so much but there was more in his head than there was in the books.