Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance The best 250 build for me

Hey,

I'd like to start by saying that this is a great forum, filled with a wealth of knowledge. So much knowledge that I'm having a hard time sifting though it to find what I want. I think the biggest problem is that most of the time, the info gets over my head and I just can't keep up... but I'm learning fast.

I have a 67 Camaro with a completely stock 250 (not numbers matching, but it was a factory 250) with a TH350. I have hummed and hawed for quite some time about whether I wanted a cookie cutter V8, or a unique and sporty 250. I've decided on my straight 6 and I'm not looking back. That being said, I bought the Inline 6 Power Manuel (2nd edition) and find myself getting lost in the gear ratios, compression ratios and things of that nature. So, I have a strong interest, but lack the depth to put it together myself.

Back on track, my 250 runs fairly strong and has for the last 4 years or so (since I bought the car) but I'm looking to assemble a wish list of parts that I will need to bring it up a notch. I suppose my goal would be to have it be near the league of a lower end V8. I'd like more low end power, enough to get up to speed limits at an impressive rate. Make someone say... "was that a 6 or an 8 in that Camaro?". Sorry, I'm rambling a bit here.

I guess another factor is that I want to keep it simple for now, perhaps upgrade in stages, starting with bolt on upgrades like headers, intake and carb, then once that's working and comfortable I can get into a cam and the internal stuff (where my knowledge is lacking now). I've had my eye on " Cliffords Combination" and emails from them state it is exactly what I'm looking for. Of course they are going to say that when it costs $1300+ and I barley know what I'm talking about. I know that Offenhauser makes a good intake too, but the water heating plate has me questioning it's suitability. I'm not rich by any means and It's likley I'll have to save for a while to buy what I want, but I have a good understanding of the cost of this project over a scrap yard 327/350.

So I guess what I'm looking for is advice on what direction, and parts I should be putting on my wish list to build up my 250. Nothing crazy but something that will make it grunt a bit more, while still keeping it a decent daily driver. Sorry for the long winded starter, I appreciate the fact that you read it to the end.

Thanks in advance.

Ian

Ian,

Help us out with a little more information here. So you have a 1967 Camaro with a 250 engine and a TH350 three speed automatic. What will be the final configuration? Will you keep the TH350 transmission or will you eventually change to a 5 speed manual with overdrive?

You might want to try a turbo install?

Most simple would be installing a turbo set-up from a 1978 3.8 turbo Regal.

Example: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/1978-buick-regal-sport-coupe-turbo-check-it-out.377083/

Or a 1981 Turbo Trans Am 301 V-8.
Try & get a complete unit w/4 BBl quadrajet carb.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Pontiac-Tur...5ea0ef7&vxp=mtr

http://www.2gta.com/1981ta.html

There are a couple guys on this BB that can post some pics of the turbo set-up on there inline 6's. Guys!!!

W/minimal mods, you can bolt up a set-up like this & make more power than bolting on an intake, 4 barrel carb, headers, cam, ignition, etc.

MBHD

Ian,

Where 'bouts in Canada are you?

Paul

Yikes! I thought I set this thread to email me on reply. Here I thought nobody cared, until I check and see 3 replies. Thanks everyone.

@Winter - The final configuration is negotable. I just want to keep in on the cheap. Say, all in for less than $2500 at the absolute most. It can be tons of bolt ons, turbo, rebuild... I just want ideas and a direction for my power plant. The only two things I want to keep are that it's an inline 6 and that it's an automatic. The wife wants to be able to drive it if needed and she can't learn a standard... tried and failed multiple times and I'm not letting her attempt to learn again on my car.

@Hank - I hadn't really considered a turbo. I've read and read as much as I can understand about the installation of a Turbo but since I'm so inexperienced with "traditional" mechanics, I find the idea of a turbo a bit advanced. That being said, if it's cheaper, and perhaps a more effective way of getting to my goal, I'd be willing to consider it.

@ McGoo - I'm in Chilliwack, BC. It's about an hour or so outside Vancouver.

Right now I've got my mind spinning on the idea of swapping in a Vortec 4200. It's a little outside my expertise, and doesn't allow me to keep the 250, but it seems like a unique project where I could end up with a decent performance with a relatively stock engine, plus the ability to add a turbo down the road if desired. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Ian

I'll chime in as MBHD suggested.

I have a 69 Buick Special Deluxe with a 250 and I use a 4 speed saginaw tranny behind it. I think for your money, a turbo would be the best route over the naturally aspirated. There's plenty of help here for a turbo build and I think the possibilities for a turbo engine are better. It'd be a nice mild mannered engine driving everywhere and then it'd be a lightening bolt when you spool up that turbo! Also a mild turbo build requires minimal machine work and the overall cost would be similar (I think)

I built a turbo 250 for around $2000. That includes
-HEI
-Holley 500cfm 2bbl Carb
-Carb Hat
-Turbo/Wastegate/BOV
-292 Exhaust Manifold
-Offenhauser intake
-Turbo Piping and flanges
-AEM Wideband Sensor and gauge
-Boost gauge
and haven't used it yet but also my new fuel system which was about ~$500 of the total cost is
-8 gal fuel cell
-Walbro 255lph fuel pump
-Mallory fuel pressure regulator

Here's some pics of my setup

Thanks for the info on your 250 Turbo build Snowman. The pictures are great too! You're right too, it doesn't seem too complicated and even though their are a lot of smaller parts to buy, it would be something I could gather and put together when ready.

I've had this 250 since I bought the car 5 years ago. I have never had it apart, or even had to do a repair at this point. That being said, it hasn't seen a lot of miles from me so I haven't really put it to the test. I have to wonder if my 250 would handle the boost. I guess their's no way to know.

Snowman, any ideas what kind of numbers your 250 puts out? Torque/HP that is?

Thanks again!

It's good to see I'm not the only one reluctant to stick another 350 in my first-gen Camaro. My '68 has the turbo-thrift with the powerglide behind it. Whatever else happens, I WILL NOT put anything but another inline six in this car.

I've been mulling the Clifford combination (and other ideas) over and over for years now. Still haven't 100% decided where to go with my 250, but a 4200 swap is looking better and better. With the right donor, I think the cost/benefit really favors the 4200.

That being said, were I to keep the 250, I'd definitely throw the Clifford combo on there, HEI, maybe one of those new fancy Holleys (or not), and probably put a TH700R4 or 2004R behind it.

For some sick reason I want to retain the stock column shift. It think that's directly related to the same condition that prevents me from considering an SBC swap.

You got any pics of this little gem?

Yeah... I've always wanted to build my car according to exactly the way I wanted it, and not how everyone else was doing it. I don't need, or care if I have a V8 but I know I want a bit more power than our stock 250 can give. I also know I want decent fuel economy as this will become a permanent daily driver. The 250 isn't bad on gas compared to some V8's but it's not amazing either. The 4200 seems to be the best of both worlds as stock, it offers similar performance as a built up 250 but still has a lot of room for performance parts (ex. turbo) and eat those crate 350's for breakfast.

You're right though, if I were to keep the 250, the Clifford combination and/or a turbo would likely be the best bet. Snowman's turbo'd 250 posted above sure does make keeping the 250 a real thinker.

My 67' was a pg column but I've already purchased the original floor shifter and console. I really like the look of the floor shifter, as well as the function.

These pictures are old, as the car is in primer in the garage, but you get the idea. The 250 still looks like this, embarrassing but it's reality. I certainly wouldn't call it a gem, at this point :P



Ian

Am I the only one who likes running a Chevy six with one 1 barrel? Maybe it's my stock class drag racing background, but I think a 230 or 250 with a glasspack and a recurved distributor is very responsive and fun to drive.

That is a nice lookin' Camaro you have there. The front end is up nice and high like I like 'em!! I must be one of only a very small bunch that likes the front ends high on most cars. (especially early F-bodies) It kinda makes 'em look like they are comin' off the line all the time! I'm in the process of yankin' the old saggy front springs out from under my '68 Firebird .

I kinda think it would be neat to graft a stock sized cowl induction hood scoop off center on a '67-'68 Camaro to mate with the 6's aircleaner ....it'd sure be different!!

fasteddie455

Camaro looks nice.

Looks like my Camaro when I installed BBC coil springs.

It was so high it was squishing the top out bushings & the bump steer was horrendous.

Had to cut the coils to make it drive decent.









MBHD

Ian,

You will be hard pressed to get the same fuel economy out of a modified iron6 vs a stock 4200.
The 2 hardest parts of installing the 4200 are:
- bulding the engine & trans mounts
- changing the fuel pump/tank/lines over to efi, but I think the aftermarket now makes a bolt in EFI tank for the 1st gen. The line etc. if you do them in braided line is not to hard to do. Hard line under the car without a hoist is painful.

Other than getting a 2wd 4200/4l60e with wiring harness and gas pedal/harness stub. You have to change the oil pan to rear sump, modify or buy one. The electrical is hook up like 6 wires. Jeremy can convert the harness and reprogram the PCM so its painless to install.

The exhaust runs on the passenger side. You will need to shorten your dive shaft about 1"

These are the big items the rest is hoses for various fluids. Time consuming but not hard.

Talk to Al in Delta and Frank in Summerland - take a day and go see them - Frank just completed a 4200 install into a '53 chevy PU. Your not pioneering a path here its been done and support is avilable.

I'd like to ask everyone here if they can come with a way to build a 275hp (net) 250 and get 26 to 28 mpg highway... max budget is $3000.

With a stock 2005 4200 in my GMC I got 27 mpg with a 4l60e 3.50 9" and 27560R15 tires at 75 mph.

Up to the challange..

LOL, looks better than mine at the moment. . .

NOX
That is a good way to mess up your car with-out having any brace in the door area. Esp. on a Uni-bodied car.
But Those are a nice way to do a Top restore.

Well, cutting any structural panels without bracing would certainly screw up the car. I welded in some good bracing before starting on the quarters. But I have yet to see any kind of flex that would ruin the car sitting static on the rotisserie.

The rotisserie mounts are the same locations as the suspension/subframe mounts, and technically there's less actual torque/leverage on the unit body, because the extra 5 or so feet of subframe are not on the car.

I think the guys that get in trouble are the ones who sling the car up on the rotisserie, skip the bracing and then start cutting all the bad panels out all at once. I'm going very slowly, one thing at a time, and watching like a hawk. Part of the reason this restoration is going so slowly is my paranoia.

Since starting the LH quarter panel, I've had almost zero fitment problems with the new panels--minus the usual give and take with aftermarket parts.

I suppose I could still be in for a nasty surprise. I certainly don't consider myself an expert. But I feel pretty good about how it's going.

With the car attached as you have it you could replace the whole front floor pan as long as rhe rockers are attached. No worrys.

I've actually done the floor work. It was sad, because there was just enough tinworm under there to force me to repair, in a place that was too technical for me to patch. I'm trying to retain as much of the original metal as possible. I ended up pretty much replacing the RH floor pan. I didn't have to touch the rockers, except for two easy patches on the RH side.

I actually like it when people challenge what you do on these forums. It's half the reason I even participate. You know Twisted could be exactly right. . . it's entirely possible that when I take the car off nothing lines up anymore. . .

In which case, I may have to make a SCCA Trans Am replica, instead of a nice, pretty concourse job. Roll with the punches!

I used to own a Restoration shop,and NO unibody was ever done with out Braces in the door.Have you ever jacked a unibody up and found you couldn't open a door Or both doors?? Why do you think they install sub frame connectors in these type cars when racing? After one to two really good hard launchs (like low wheels up even) The body can twist and Now they won't open.
All I am trying to say is IT can Happen I know i have seen it first hand.And this was long before I had my own shop.One thing we always made sure of when we had a unibody on a rotory is that both ends were raised at the same time to avoid unwanted body twist.Our rotory's had hyd. bottles on both ends Unlike what you have there.Also we had extra tie bars on each corner if we were going to be moving it around alot. We felt it made it more stable
when we wanted to turn the whole car around.(meaning end for end)
And we could almost sitit down on the rails if we wanted to.We even had body dollys,So we could just set the car down on the frame with everything else gone.But anyway it was just food for thought.